Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
ah .... you're right ..... I saw the 1978 and thought he was using a CD recorder of that era but he is not.
And yeah, a soundblaster would be even worse.
And yeah, a soundblaster would be even worse.
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sjjohnston
New member
Yeah: my post was more directed at the general topic and some other posts.
It's not entirely clear to me exactly what two things the OP is comparing, or how he's doing it.
One of them is described as:
"12 inch single we made back in 88 when played back through my pc sound system"
"the actual sound of a 12 inch vinyl single."
The other:
"pure digital recordings we have also mastered,"
"digital replica was made using a Pioneer turntable and a Teac amp, both of some vintage, 1978 or so recorded into Ableton 8. Then it was level mastered only and saved at 44.1Khz"
"level-only mastered digital copy"
I'm rather confused by the fact he said he's playing the vinyl through his "pc sound system." Presumably he's using a turntable and a phono preamp, most likely the one in the TEAC amp he mentions.* I'm not sure how (or why) it then gets into his PC sound system, and whether that means he's digitizing it anyway. I'm also unclear from what and how (and even when) he made the digital copy.
Personally, when I make a digital copy of a vinyl record (which I've done many times), I can't tell the difference between them (except where I have worked on the digital recording to remove pops and the like, when the digital one sounds better).
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*Did 1978-vintage TEAC amps have preamp outs? My memory is they didn't: that was more a feature of higher-end (and later) audiophile-esque gear, which would have little U-things on the back to bridge the RCAs for the preamp outs to the amp ins.
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
if not they surely had tape loop outs
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Lukesteele
New member
Where did you get THAT piece of disinformation from? lol.. I outputted the signal from my turntable into a Lexicon I-Onix u82S digital mixer with AMAZING A/D and D/A convertors btw.. all I am saying is a digital copy is just that...a SAMPLE of the real thing and therefore cannot ever sound as authentic as the vinyl record it was copied from. 
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Lukesteele
New member
I outputted my turntable through a phono amp to a Lexicon I- Onix u82S digital mixer which outputs to my pc sound system. I recorded the stereo signal to Ableton 8 on a stereo track at 44.1Khz, 16 bit and compared the recording to the actual source, the vinyl 12 inch. The vinyl sound was more real to our ears. The digital sound was clear but "flat" sounding in that it lacked depth. I hope this clarifies what I've been saying folks! Cheers,
Lu
Lu
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Lukesteele
New member
Tape loop outs yep!
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Lukesteele
New member
WRONG! The monitor, my pc sound system, is the same for both digital playback and source(the turntable), and therefore direct comparisons can be made between the recording and the vinyl input. Vinyl sounds better unless I suppose I record at a much higher sampling rate but I just don't see the point of doing that if the end result is going to be downgraded to 44.1 KHz for Cd audio anyway! Cheers,
Lu
Lu
bouldersoundguy
Well-known member
We were speculating based on what little info you offered. You said you recorded it into a PC and didn't specify an interface.
all I am saying is a digital copy is just that...a SAMPLE of the real thing and therefore cannot ever sound as authentic as the vinyl record it was copied from.
As if the vinyl is a perfect copy of the master tape. Any time you copy audio from one format to another (except a straight digital transfer) there is necessarily some loss. All you've proved that whatever you did in the transfer screwed up the sound.
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sjjohnston
New member
Okay, how you made the digital copy is clear.
How did you play the straight vinyl version that you compared that to? Obviously, one end is the output from the turntable, and the other is the speakers in your PC sound system. What's in between isn't clear to me.
How did you play the straight vinyl version that you compared that to? Obviously, one end is the output from the turntable, and the other is the speakers in your PC sound system. What's in between isn't clear to me.
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sjjohnston
New member
Good point. Vinyl is very "inauthentic" if you evaluate it compared to the master tape. That's why you need a mastering engineer with expertise in cutting vinyl masters to make one. The notion that vinyl is more "authentic" then digital is silly, if you compare the ability of both vinyl and digital to capture some pre-existing master recording accurately. Or course, it's possible you might like the compromises and infidelities that recording to vinyl introduces.
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Lukesteele
New member
It's common knowledge that analogue sounds better than digital copies made of it regardless of what transfer technique is used, so what's your point again? Digital recording is purely SAMPLING the REAL THING (analogue).
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Lukesteele
New member
I'm NOT comparing the master tape to anything. I'm comparing the sound of vinyl to a CLEAN digital recording of it. Have you listened to the song I recorded? How can you say I screwed up the transfer unless you have???
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Lukesteele
New member
I guess you just had to be here to hear it then folks!! No matter what differences the vinyl had compared to the tape master, it still crapped all over the digital recording, and I still think the digital recording I made is just fine!! Check it out..
SoundClick artist: Drops Of Light - Current Members :Lu Ruello -Vocals,keyboards,guitar,drums, Vince Ruello - Bass, guitar,vocals, Jerry
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Lukesteele
New member
I used a stereo amp with tape outs to my Lexicon 8 channel mixer that outputs to my 2.1 pc system. The same system I used to playback the digital recording from my pc! A/B switching and voila!
bouldersoundguy
Well-known member
That's helpful info. What exactly do you mean by "2.1 pc system"? Speakers made for computers? Do the speakers get their signal from the Lexicon interface? Are the levels matched between the A and B inputs you're switching? It doesn't take more than a dB or so of mismatch to make one sound better. Did the listeners know which they were listening to?
Bobbsy
Boring Old Git
The weak point of most cheap PC sound cards is the input side, not the output--they're designed to sound good on games and videos, not record decent quality audio. Beyond that, the Lexicon mixer was an un-needed extra stage and was bound to introduce a small amount of extra noise and other errors--even the highest quality gear isn't perfect and you Lexicon is far from the highest quality gear.
That said, a copy of anything is never as good as the original no matter how good the gear used to do it is. Every stage of electronics adds something to or takes away something from the original. This is the way of the world. That said, as I posted earlier, I've done digital copies of specialist vinyl like 12 inch singles or my half speed mastered Pink Floyd and managed to get them darn close to the originals--certainly good enough to tell the the "special" vinyl was different from (and better than) "ordinary" vinyl. But identical? Nope. The world doesn't work that way.
Anyway, if you digital copies sound "not quite as good as" the vinyl originals, that's completely normal. However if the vinyl "craps all over" you copies then you need to review how you made the copies--they shouldn't be THAT bad.
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sjjohnston
New member
If you say you must be right because it's common knowledge that you're right, then you're not doing an experiment, you're just repeating what someone told you is common knowledge, which may or may not be right (meaning both that common knowledge may be wrong, and it may not be common knowledge in the first place).
Given my knowledge of Lexicon's product line (which isn't complete), I suspect the "Lexicon mixer" he refers to was a Lexicon Omega, or something similar. In which case, the purpose for using it becomes clearer, and some other points arise.
Given my knowledge of Lexicon's product line (which isn't complete), I suspect the "Lexicon mixer" he refers to was a Lexicon Omega, or something similar. In which case, the purpose for using it becomes clearer, and some other points arise.
Bobbsy
Boring Old Git
There IS an actual 8 channel mixer in addition to their actual interfaces. This, along with reference to a 2.1 system was enough for me to take him at his word.
Bobbsy
Boring Old Git
It's also common knowledge that an analogue copy of an original never sounds as good as that original, even with the very best equipment. On balance I'd say a digital copy of a vinyl disk probably comes closer to the original than, say, a dub to reel to reel. It's certainly better than a dub to cassette--but I say again that no copy is as good as the original so this discussion is largely pointless.
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sjjohnston
New member
Something I didn't know.
The playback chain on the vinyl is confusing. When I play a vinyl record, my practice would be: turntable -> receiver or integrated amp with phono input -> speakers. Introducing a mixer into the playback of a straight stereo signal seems odd indeed. It verges on crazy if you're using passive speakers, though I suppose he probably has active monitors.