12 inch vinyl single versus digital transfer

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Lukesteele

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I was amazed to hear the biggest, warmest sound from our self-funded 12 inch single we made back in 88 when played back through my pc sound system that matches or exceeds the pure digital recordings we have also mastered!

Size DOES MATTER when it comes to vinyl folks! The vinyl sound is far superior to the digital replica to all ears here.

Check it out: Halley's Comet by Drops of Light

Cheers,
Lu :)
 
Lukesteele said:
I was amazed to hear the biggest, warmest sound from our self-funded 12 inch single we made back in 88 when played back through my pc sound system that matches or exceeds the pure digital recordings we have also mastered!

Size DOES MATTER when it comes to vinyl folks! The vinyl sound is far superior to the digital replica to all ears here.

Check it out: Halley's Comet by Drops of Light

Cheers,
Lu :)
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Never heard a 12" single but way back in the day I heard some direct cut jazz. The rig IIRC, was Linn Sondek, Ortofon pup. Forget the amps but would have been good. Speakers were Castle Acoustics, the big Mothers with a 12" woofer.

Superb sound, the noise and distortion were so low it could have been digital!

Dave.
 
IMO music lovers are best off buying a CD from Amazon if they want the best sound they can get from an artist simply because what they're getting is a WAV file versus a 128 kbs MP3's from ITunes. But I guess the convenience of MP3's makes them the preferred media. That's life! :)

Cheers,
Lu
 
I have a "half speed direct master" version of Dark Side of the Moon and, though likely not in the same league as your 12 inch single, the quality is superb even compared to the regular vinyl version or my CD version (can you tell I like Dark Side?).

However, I have to say that my own carefully done CD copy of the half speed master is virtually identical to the original. That's virtually, not totally. However, it sounds better than either the regular vinyl version or the commercial CD.

As for MP3, yuck. Spawn of the devil. I'm sorry, but I will never trade that much quality for the "convenience". I really don't feel I have any need to carry my entire music collection with me at all times, especially if it means such a huge compromise on the quality of the sound. What worries me is that, over the last 15 years or so, storage onboard an MP3 player has grown from 32 meg to 16 or 32 gig...yet the extra storage is being used for more crap quality rather than getting back to real music.

Any of us who care about quality are screwed.
 
Bobbsy said:
As for MP3, yuck. Spawn of the devil. I'm sorry, but I will never trade that much quality for the "convenience". I really don't feel I have any need to carry my entire music collection with me at all times, especially if it means such a huge compromise on the quality of the sound. What worries me is that, over the last 15 years or so, storage onboard an MP3 player has grown from 32 meg to 16 or 32 gig...yet the extra storage is being used for more crap quality rather than getting back to real music.

Any of us who care about quality are screwed.
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I don't think anyone is screwed - you can choose between vinyl, CD or MP3 versions of almost any album. I think as a music listener, you are better off now than you were 15 years ago since you have 3 different formats to choose from from rather than 1 or 2 (a lot of albums in late 90's were only available on CD).

Also, with the increase in storage capacity of portable music devices, you can pretty much fit your entire music collection in CD equivalent format - or rip your vinyls to the device. The only people that may have been left out are those that don't like vinyl and want more music available in a digital format in higher bit/sample rate than CD.
 
I used to love buying 12" singles back in the day of only vinyl. They always had a better bass sound and were fuller and louder than the usual 7" single or LP which was due to the fatter grooves and the fact that they were 12" but played at 45rpm. The fun too was that they were usually longer versions of the songs. The classic was Soft Cell's Tainted Love 12" which after the single version finished it went into a nifty version of "Where Did our Love Go".

Alan.
 
Yup...and unlike a lot of today's hard to understand technology, there were good, simple reasons why a 12 inch single was better.

With a standard 45rpm single or a 33rpm LP album, the engineer doing the physical cutting was constrained with how much excursion he could allow on each groove--to much and it's getting into the next groove. With a 12 inch single, the cutting engineer had room to play--and the results speak for themselves.
 
I started digitizing some of my record collection a while back. Most of it sounds really good, but some of it is terrible. For example, just about any Angel album has enough 2k in it to peel the paint off the walls and very little low end to balance it. Sometimes the low end of these albums is so high that my subwoofer in the car doesn't get the signal and my mid drivers are attempting to reproduce it.

It seems hit or miss weather the vinyl version sounds better than the cd or not with my collection. Some mixes work well with the way vinyl works, other stuff feels constrained by it. Im mostly just transferring albums that either aren't available on cd, or they aren't important enough to me to spend the money on the cd.
 
I love vinyl, especially when it's an AAA release, you can just hear the difference when someone who knows what they're doing is cutting the album. Bobbsy, I assume your Dark Side of the Moon half-speed master album is from Mobile Fidelity? They do a fantastic job. I don't own any MoFi vinyl myself but the cd's they make are also outstanding.

I'm rather forgiving of mp3's myself. And maybe that's because I never download mp3's. I buy cd's and import them into iTunes at 256k/44.1. It just might take up a little more space, but the tradeoff in quality is acceptable, and I only use my iPod for listening in the car anyway. And to be able to fit my entire cd collection in my pants pocket is a good thing indeed.
 
Lukesteele said:
I was amazed to hear the biggest, warmest sound from our self-funded 12 inch single we made back in 88 when played back through my pc sound system that matches or exceeds the pure digital recordings we have also mastered!

Size DOES MATTER when it comes to vinyl folks! The vinyl sound is far superior to the digital replica to all ears here.

Check it out: Halley's Comet by Drops of Light

Cheers,
Lu :)
Click to expand...

Of course you're not comparing just the end format, you're comparing any different processing that was applied. When was the digital "replica" made, 1988? Did you do level matched double blind A/B/X testing?

No doubt a 12" single can sound better than an LP with the big grooves and more grains of vinyl to represent the waves. (That's right, GRAINS of vinyl, so instead of the digital "stair step" you have a rocky slope. Fortunately the large size of the stylus compared to the grains acts as a low pass filter.)
 
I have quite a few Mo-Fi issues and they're almost always great. I find the DSOM issue to be one of their lesser offers but it still sounds very good. I have other pressings of it that I think are superior (also a DSOM freak)
 
Lukesteele said:
The vinyl sound is far superior to the digital replica to all ears here.
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So, you've done the level matched double blind A/B/X tests? When was the digital "replica" made, 1988? Was there any difference in the audio processing for each format? What are you actually comparing, formats or other factors? Just curious.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
Of course you're not comparing just the end format, you're comparing any different processing that was applied. When was the digital "replica" made, 1988? Did you do level matched double blind A/B/X testing?

No doubt a 12" single can sound better than an LP with the big grooves and more grains of vinyl to represent the waves. (That's right, GRAINS of vinyl, so instead of the digital "stair step" you have a rocky slope. Fortunately the large size of the stylus compared to the grains acts as a low pass filter.)
Click to expand...
https://homerecording.com/bbs/gener...tal-sampling-stair-stepping-explained-359811/
there are no stair steps.
 
The digital replica was made using a Pioneer turntable and a Teac amp, both of some vintage, 1978 or so recorded into Ableton 8. Then it was level mastered only and saved at 44.1Khz (CD quality). The song was tested on various players and our collective ears did the rest, is that what you mean?
 
I'm comparing the actual sound of a 12 inch vinyl single to the level-only mastered digital copy of it played through the same sound system. Vinyl wins hands down! :)
 
Lukesteele said:
The digital replica was made using a Pioneer turntable and a Teac amp, both of some vintage, 1978 or so recorded into Ableton 8. Then it was level mastered only and saved at 44.1Khz (CD quality). The song was tested on various players and our collective ears did the rest, is that what you mean?
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So you're comparing a professionally mastered and pressed 12" vinyl single to a transfer you did on consumer gear? All you've done is show the degradation your signal path added.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
So you're comparing a professionally mastered and pressed 12" vinyl single to a transfer you did on consumer gear? All you've done is show the degradation your signal path added.
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the biggest thing is that his converters are OLD!
Late 70's A/D and D/A converters don't stand up to todays at all.

Having said that ..... the digital copies I make of vinyl on my more current consumer gear sound WAY better usually than the commercial CD's of same.
As for the idea that the vinyl sounds better than the CD copies I make .... meh, I feel like I can hear a difference but it's hardly night and day.
I prefer vinyl and still buy almost all music I buy on vinyl but if I lost my huge collection I would not do it again. Today's digital is good enough.
 
Lt. Bob said:
the biggest thing is that his converters are OLD!
Late 70's A/D and D/A converters don't stand up to todays at all.
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I don't recall seeing anything about his converters. For all we know he's going through the line inputs on his Soundblaster.
 
If you take a vinyl record and record it on your computer (using some turntable, AD converter and software) and compare that to a CD version of the same record (ripped to a WAV file, or not), you will likely hear a difference. The difference is NOT the result of any limitation or problem or lack of fidelity in the digital recording process - or any aspect of "digitalness" - it's the result of limitations and lack of fidelity in the vinyl recording process. Most likely those include things the mastering engineer did to deal with the limitations of vinyl, like compression or centering bass frequencies, and the high noise floor that's pretty much a "feature" of vinyl. If you think these alterations to the original recording improve it, you can put them on without bothering with the vinyl disk.
 
sjjohnston said:
If you take a vinyl record and record it on your computer (using some turntable, AD converter and software) and compare that to a CD version of the same record (ripped to a WAV file, or not), you will likely hear a difference. The difference is NOT the result of any limitation or problem or lack of fidelity in the digital recording process - or any aspect of "digitalness" - it's the result of limitations and lack of fidelity in the vinyl recording process. Most likely those include things the mastering engineer did to deal with the limitations of vinyl, like compression or centering bass frequencies, and the high noise floor that's pretty much a "feature" of vinyl. If you think these alterations to the original recording improve it, you can put them on without bothering with the vinyl disk.
Click to expand...

Right, but he's comparing his 12" single with the digital transfer he made himself with his gear and blaming the differences on "digital". Any differences are of his own doing, not due to "digital".
 
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