My mixes are always softer than commercial music of the same genre

[DM60]

Since I record by myself, I have been using a BBE compressor in my chain just to avoid clips. I use it mainly as a limiter. This helped me to avoid clipping when I was first starting out. As I have become more familiar with my equipment, I have started reducing its use on most recording inputs. It helped a lot until I could get a grasp of all of these new concepts around recording.

 

[XeroTalent]

So I tried recording last night with all my gains off, and tried tracking some guitar where the highest level was around -10dB on the Reaper track.... and it was terrible.

I'm using a distortion VST, but it needs a strong signal to, well distort. Because the signal was too weak, the distortion was almost non-existant, even with the "drive" and "chub" dials turned on max. Only when I turned up the gain did I get the chunkiness I was looking for. I tried with mulitple distortions, all the same result. I had to increase the gain knob on the TASCAM for the guitar track to get a decent signal, and while it wasn't clipping at 0dB, it was floating around -2dB... still not the headroom that you guys were talking about giving myself.

Also, the wave outputs (the graphical wave in the track lane) for -10dB were tiny, barely a blip on the line. Is that normal?

 

[RAMI]

So I tried recording last night with all my gains off, and tried tracking some guitar where the highest level was around -10dB on the Reaper track.... and it was terrible.

I'm using a distortion VST, but it needs a strong signal to, well distort. Because the signal was too weak, the distortion was almost non-existant, even with the "drive" and "chub" dials turned on max. Only when I turned up the gain did I get the chunkiness I was looking for. I tried with mulitple distortions, all the same result. I had to increase the gain knob on the TASCAM for the guitar track to get a decent signal, and while it wasn't clipping at 0dB, it was floating around -2dB... still not the headroom that you guys were talking about giving myself.

Also, the wave outputs (the graphical wave in the track lane) for -10dB were tiny, barely a blip on the line. Is that normal?

Yes, the small wave (compared to what you're used to seeing) is normal. There should be a way to zoom in visually.

As for the rest, I'll let others more knowledgeable about guitar recording help you out. But, I will say that, even with my amp cranked, I never have a problem with not being able to get enough gain without going close to 0db. In fact, I often have to turn up the gain on my interface to get a signal that peaks around -12db. I use a Fender Strat into a Fender Super Champ into a Shure SM57 into a TASCAM US800.. I can crank that amp loud and distorted and still ave no danger of going anywhere near clipping.

 

[XeroTalent]

Yes, the small wave (compared to what you're used to seeing) is normal. There should be a way to zoom in visually.

As for the rest, I'll let others more knowledgeable about guitar recording help you out. But, I will say that, even with my amp cranked, I never have a problem with not being able to get enough gain without going close to 0db. In fact, I often have to turn up the gain on my interface to get a signal that peaks around -12db. I use a Fender Strat into a Fender Super Champ into a Shure SM57 into a TASCAM US800.. I can crank that amp loud and distorted and still ave no danger of going anywhere near clipping.

Hmmmm....

Yeah, the wave is literally almost a complete flat line, with a few very small bumps to indicate strumming. Like, really small... I'll try and get a screengrab of it, cause I think it might be too small, but again, I've been doing this wrong all along so maybe not.

EDIT: Not my screengrab, but when I say the wave is almost a flat line, I mean it's similar to this:

I'm not using an amp to record the guitar, I'm plugging directly into the TACAM 1800 and then applying a distortion VST. Maybe that's the difference in the signal levels?

 

[Massive Master]

Hmmmm....

Yeah, the wave is literally almost a complete flat line, with a few very small bumps to indicate strumming. Like, really small... I'll try and get a screengrab of it, cause I think it might be too small, but again, I've been doing this wrong all along so maybe not.

EDIT: Not my screengrab, but when I say the wave is almost a flat line, I mean it's similar to this:

Totally normal. I hate the thought of "mixing with your eyes" but that's a representation of a reasonably healthy track.

I'm not using an amp to record the guitar, I'm plugging directly into the TACAM 1800 and then applying a distortion VST. Maybe that's the difference in the signal levels?

That's one of those "you might have to adjust something" things. If you need to smack it to make it sound right, there you go. If there's an input sensitivity control buried in there somewhere that you can set to something more normal, THERE you go.

Since I record by myself, I have been using a BBE compressor in my chain just to avoid clips. I use it mainly as a limiter. This helped me to avoid clipping when I was first starting out. As I have become more familiar with my equipment, I have started reducing its use on most recording inputs. It helped a lot until I could get a grasp of all of these new concepts around recording.

It's a good thing too (that you're not using it as much) because if you're even close to the GR threshold, you're already at around 3-400% of the voltage the circuit was designed to handle. Clipping should be the last thing you worry about. If you're even in the same ZIP code, you're WAAAAY too hot.

 

[XeroTalent]

That's one of those "you might have to adjust something" things. If you need to smack it to make it sound right, there you go. If there's an input sensitivity control buried in there somewhere that you can set to something more normal, THERE you go.

The problem is, when I turn down the volume knob on the guitar, I lose my distortion because the signal is too weak, even when I crank the drive on the distortion.

 

[Steenamaroo]

The problem is, when I turn down the volume knob on the guitar, I lose my distortion because the signal is too weak, even when I crank the drive on the distortion.

You're turning down the volume pots on the guitar to set your level?
I see where you got that....but don't.


Amp sim vsts will usually have input and output controls for this reason.
They're designed to create or simulate distortion and pretty much do the opposite of what you should do when tracking.
With an amp or simulator you might have input gain so high that the signal distorts, then output gain low so it's not too loud.


Basically, turn the guitar up (or wherever sounds right), turn the interface gain until your signal is healthy, then play with the sim until it sounds right.
That might mean amp sim input gain at 11 and output volume at 1.....So be it - as long as your dry recording is healthy.

Your pics aren't much to go on because pretty much every DAW has customisable zoom settings.
Go on the meters, not the pictures.

 

[XeroTalent]

You're turning down the volume pots on the guitar to set your level?
I see where you got that....but don't.


Amp sim vsts will usually have input and output controls for this reason.
They're designed to create or simulate distortion and pretty much do the opposite of what you should do when tracking.
With an amp or simulator you might have input gain so high that the signal distorts, then output gain low so it's not too loud.


Basically, turn the guitar up (or wherever sounds right), turn the interface gain until your signal is healthy, then play with the sim until it sounds right.
That might mean amp sim input gain at 11 and output volume at 1.....So be it - as long as your dry recording is healthy.

Your pics aren't much to go on because pretty much every DAW has customisable zoom settings.
Go on the meters, not the pictures.

This is the amp sim I'm using: Download Free Amp simulator plug-in: Free Amp 3 by Fretted Synth

Don't seem to see an input/output control, but I'll dig around to see if I can find one.

 

[Steenamaroo]

That's laid out like most vsts and real amps.
You have a preamp section to the left with gain/volume, and a power amp section to the right with gain/volume.
Think of preamp as tone and power amp as volume (I know, I know......)



If you set pre volume low and the power volume high, your signal will be clean.
Pre volume high and power volume low, signal will be distorted.

If you do away with all the pedals and extra options, it's really just a signal path from left to right.

Understanding that is actually extremely relevant to healthy tracking. It's a great comparison.
If you're thinking along those lines, the vst pre volume relates to your interface gain, and the vst power volume relates to your reaper faders.

If the gain/pre is too high, the turning down the power amp/fader won't get rid of your distortion/clipping....see?

The difference is that analog distortion (or a simulation of it in your vst) can be nice, and digital distortion just clips and sounds awful.


Almost any audio signal path will have more than one place where you can adjust the volume.
Getting this right is referred to as proper gain staging. I'm sure you've heard that mentioned.

 

[Thurgood]

Hey xero. PM me I can walk you through some of the issues you are facing. BTW this has been a great thread and good advice. I am a lazy typist so an "in person" conversation may be to your advantage. WS. Be well all.

 

[ashcat_lt]

This is the amp sim I'm using: Download Free Amp simulator plug-in: Free Amp 3 by Fretted Synth

Don't seem to see an input/output control, but I'll dig around to see if I can find one.

Stick a gain/volume plugin before the amp sim on the guitar channel. I would use JS/utility/volume in Reaper, but whatever you're using probably has something similar. If you want to get funky with it you could try any of a number of preamp emulators or even a compressor plugin to add "color" before hitting the amp sim, but just straight gain should work fine. It will still amplify any noise that got recorded, but if your pre/interface is actually noisier when the gain knob is turned up, you'll avoid that extra bit at least.

 

[laurend]

Once you have a mix you're happy with, mix it down (or render, whatever your DAW calls it)bring the stereo file into a new project and that's where you bring the volume up, usually with a compressor/liniter, but that's a whole other discussion.

I can't say better.

 

[blund69]

First, you are comparing professionally recorded/MASTERED mixes! it's kind of like a dog chasing its tail - if you want that professional sound, IMHO you need to work with a qualified MASTERING engineer! plain and simple. I have met very few, really good, mixing engineers who can properly master a project - it is a whole different area of audio science - none of which is B.S. and totally worth every penny you spend, I have been using Erik Wolf, Wolf Mastering out of Nashville for years, he is great and his advice always turn my good mixes into great mixes. But if you want to get close to what they get then I suggest these few simple steps.

You need to find out from your interface manufacture what the maximum input meter setting should be to equate to a reference level of +4 db (or -10db). Then, when you track you need to strive, really hard some times, to not over shoot that meter level - for each track! I run my entire studio at +4b -so all of my metering is calibrated at +4 = 0dbf. In my case, I use an Apogee Symphony IO with 16x16 cards - Apogee tells me that an input level of -16db = +4 = 0 db. Why does this matter? because you need to leave plenty of headroom on each track so you can add effects, eq and other enhancements PLUS sum all of them together so as not to overload the master bus. +2.5 on the mater bus gives you and your mastering engineer absolutely no room to punch it up! In fact, I like to keep my master bus running -1 to -2 db with maybe an occasional -0.5 db peak. If you want it louder when monitoring - then turn up your AMP not the master bus.

OK, now that you have a great sounding, well leveled recording walk away from it for 3-4 days - maybe a week -remember you have been spending weeks mixing this album so your ears need time to rest before you master it, you need an objective ear. Then bring it into your mastering application i.e. Wave Burner, Sound Forge or any of the dozens of other similar apps. Spend some money to purchase an outstanding mastering EQ i.e. UAD Massey Massive Passive Plug or Sony Oxford AND I highly recommend purchasing Steven Slate FG-X mastering Plugin - select the "Rock Master" preset and crank it up - you'll be amazed at the difference. It will be loud and punchy but NOT distorted - it will get you much closer to that commercial sound.

But as a last note - if you are going to release your project for sale - take off all of the master bus plug ins, bounce the tracks minimum 24bit/48Khz and send to a qualified mastering engineer - it makes a huge difference.

 

[johnnyo34]

I've been following this thread with great interest.. I'm very new to computer recording.. Have been using a Korg D3200.. Am going to try Reaper.
Can someone just clarify , I track on the korg at -10db, mix all tracks to -10db to a Stereo pair, then bring the Stereo pair into Reaper & Master to 0db? or would it be wiser to bring all tracks into Reaper, then mix to a Stereo Pair? then use a Limiter??
I like Xero also tracked too hot, & have the same results as Xero.. I hope he doesn't mind me jumping into this thread as my problem is the same..

 

[Massive Master]

First, you are comparing PROFESSIONALLY recorded/mastered mixes!

I kind of agree with that first line -- Although I changed the emphasis to the far more important word.

Everything else -- I mean, you're confusing the hell out of the guy. And you have typos in there in some really, really bad spots ("0dBf") and vital omissions ("0dB").

I won't even get into the whole "presets" thing... But let's get him crawling before he starts running and jumping.

 

[Rod Norman]

You are experiencing the result of assholes taking over the labels. Step one, look at your mix, select the peaks and ease them back by hand just a little so everything looks less sharp and pointy. Snare hits, are the cause of a lot of those, so be patient and take your time. Doing it by hand will result in an even level for step two. Now, in your recording suite (you don't mention which one you have) there should be a multiband compressor. In it, there should be some presets. Since you are not experienced with it, start there. Try listening to your tracks with one after the other applied. (ignore the names, they mean nothing) Pick one you like, burn a CD and see if that doesn't improve your placement in the scheme of things. Don't try to solve this on your own. The multiband mastering compressor is what they are using, so you hit back the same way. Pushing levels will only reduce your headroom, which is the area you have before clipping. Good Luck
Rod Norman

I admit I'm a beginner at mixing... but I can get everything sounding pretty damn good, all the instruments have their own space, and the song as a whole sounds great.

Right now, the result of my mix is about as loud as it will go... I'm already peaking about +2.5dB on my Master fader. All my other tracks have wiggle room, except the kick and snare which is just under peaking... I've been using those tracks as my baseline to revolve the other faders around.

But if I put my songs in a playlist with other commercial music of the same genre (rock, hard rock), then I notice that my songs are significantly lower in volume than the commercial music.

I know about the whole 'loudness wars', but is this a result of my recording techniques, microphones, mixing, or are most commercial rock tracks cranked to 11? I don't want to push my Master any higher for fear of distorting or generating ear fatigue.

Just curious if anyone else has had this issue, and if/how you overcame it so that your music is roughly the same volume as commercial tracks.

Thanks!

 

[Mo Facta]

You are experiencing the result of assholes taking over the labels. Step one, look at your mix, select the peaks and ease them back by hand just a little so everything looks less sharp and pointy. Snare hits, are the cause of a lot of those, so be patient and take your time. Doing it by hand will result in an even level for step two. Now, in your recording suite (you don't mention which one you have) there should be a multiband compressor. In it, there should be some presets. Since you are not experienced with it, start there. Try listening to your tracks with one after the other applied. (ignore the names, they mean nothing) Pick one you like, burn a CD and see if that doesn't improve your placement in the scheme of things. Don't try to solve this on your own. The multiband mastering compressor is what they are using, so you hit back the same way. Pushing levels will only reduce your headroom, which is the area you have before clipping. Good Luck
Rod Norman

All of the above in bold is bad advice.

Looks less sharpy and pointy? Audio should never be approached from a VISUAL aspect. That is NO NO NO.

Telling a beginner to use a preset on a multiband compressor (a maul-the-band compressor as Massive calls it) is also bad advice, especially if he has no idea how to use one. That is jumping the gun WAY too much. I can guarantee you that most pro-level mastering guys are not using multibands to achieve loudness. Firstly, they're working with pros who know how to record and mix properly. Those guys are working with artists, musicians and performers who can play properly. Excellent mixes are more robust to loudness processing. Secondly, the majority of MEs that I know use wideband processing implemented properly, 99% of the time.

I curse the day multiband compression was invented.

Cheers

 

[blund69]

you have typos in there in some really, really bad spots ("0dBf") and vital omissions ("0dB").

I won't even get into the whole "presets" thing...

hmmm... only typo I see was the 0dbf flub good catch - it should have been -16dbfs = +4dbu = 0db

This is based on the RP155 Standard, where +4dBu equals -20dBFS. (This standard thus offers 6dB more headroom.) This is specified by the Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers (SMPTE).

However, Apogee Symphony IO specification states that an input of -16dbfs = +4dbU

As for the plugin comments - I agree that Plugins are not the best approach to mastering, I prefer breaking out to analog equipment and back into SADiE or similar - however, plugins are good enough to get a rough idea of a final project. The Steven Slate FG-x plugin gets things pretty darn close.

 

[Jay C]

I admit I'm a beginner at mixing... but I can get everything sounding pretty damn good, all the instruments have their own space, and the song as a whole sounds great.

Right now, the result of my mix is about as loud as it will go... I'm already peaking about +2.5dB on my Master fader. All my other tracks have wiggle room, except the kick and snare which is just under peaking... I've been using those tracks as my baseline to revolve the other faders around.

But if I put my songs in a playlist with other commercial music of the same genre (rock, hard rock), then I notice that my songs are significantly lower in volume than the commercial music.

I know about the whole 'loudness wars', but is this a result of my recording techniques, microphones, mixing, or are most commercial rock tracks cranked to 11? I don't want to push my Master any higher for fear of distorting or generating ear fatigue.

Just curious if anyone else has had this issue, and if/how you overcame it so that your music is roughly the same volume as commercial tracks.

Thanks!

Hi i'm also a newb at mixing, but my skill more than doubled after a tutorial called "Rethink Mixing" it was a great help. one thing i learned that was awesome for trimming excess db's was to do a high and low pass on a lot of the tracks to get rid of the super low and super high that you can't hear anyway. that's just one thing i learned. see if you can check it out it's 9 vids about 1 hour each.

 

[Robert Moehle]

My thought, late though it maybe, is "Mix the hell out of your project." Forget the high level, and make the mix so good it grabs your ears right off. If you have mixes that are really good and earcatching but aren't quite up to commercial level, I guarantee your standard listener will go to the volume control and turn it up to catch the subtleties of your mix. If on the other hand the mix is not great and not mastered to perfection, it may not be as listenable as your original mix. It'll still at a high level, and the listener will decide it isn't worth listening to and will just turn it off. Great mix, lower lever - listeners will turn it up to hear it.