Mastering is all about being loud.

[bongoboy]

How about the stuff I have for sale? 37 wax cylinders, 3 toothpicks, a funnel and a hamster wheel with 2 different drive gears so you can record at different speeds. Supply your own rodents. I heard of a new gadget called fo-no-graf. You may want to look into it. Too newfangled for me.

 

[Massive Master]

I'm talking out of my ass, so none of this might be true.

That's about it though. The RIAA curve compensated for the inherent issues with vinyl's "frequency preference" and excessive loudness (even in the narrow band, such as sibilance) would send the needle skipping across the surface.

Personally speaking -- I'm not looking for "audiophile" -- I'm just looking for "reasonable."

 

[RAMI]

How about the stuff I have for sale? 37 wax cylinders, 3 toothpicks, a funnel and a hamster wheel with 2 different drive gears so you can record at different speeds. Supply your own rodents. I heard of a new gadget called fo-no-graf. You may want to look into it. Too newfangled for me.

How much for just the toothpicks?

 

[bongoboy]

Well, one is used, so seeing that you're a stand-up kinda guy, I'll just mail 'em too you. I'll even pay for the stamp.

 

[RAMI]

That's about it though. The RIAA curve compensated for the inherent issues with vinyl's "frequency preference" and excessive loudness (even in the narrow band, such as sibilance) would send the needle skipping across the surface.

Really? Cool! I WASN'T TOTALLY WRONG!!!!!!!!!! WOOHOO!!!!

Personally speaking -- I'm not looking for "audiophile" -- I'm just looking for "reasonable."

That makes sense. The thing is, in my view, if a mix can stand up to louder volumes, then it's not "too loud". It's one thing when someone tries to smash their mix to average -9 or something stupid like that. Most mixes just fall apart and my ears get tired before the intro's done. But if a mix can stand up to averaging something like -12, then why not? Sure, you're sacrificing some dynamics, but maybe you're just trading that away for some "punch". Of course, if a mix can't handle and falls a part at a "reasonable loud" volume of -12 (just using that as an example), then the mix probably isn't ready for mastering anyway.

 

[miroslav]

Lol! Really? You're gonna talk about my music? Really? Seriously? You?

I didn't call anyone a "dinosaur"....you brought it up.

I do get your point.....

And I get yours about same-old-arguments....but you know, they only become that when someone has a problem with people discussing a topic, and they come in to pooh-pooh the discussion.
Thing is, "loudness" actually IS still an active discussion in pro audio circles, and the engineers that make up that crowd ARE looking for ways to fix the problem of smashing the shit out of every piece of music JUST to get more level...since there are simpler ways to get LOUD playback than forcing it/"embedding it" at the source.
Like I mentioned, there has been a bit of turnaround starting with broadcast TV, because people ARE starting to get it, and I wouldn't be surprised if at some point (maybe when digital delivery of audio finally steps away from shitty MP3 rates) that it will also turn back in pro audio. Once the delivery allows for high-end "audiophile" quality, the only people who won't notice the improvement will be the ones that went deaf from having everything LOUD.

The funny thing is that there are more people who still do things with some dynamics and people who still appreciate the fine details in audio quality than you may think. It's not just the "kids" you see walking down the street with their "buds" in their ears who listen to music.....

 

[RAMI]

Well, one is used, so seeing that you're a stand-up kinda guy, I'll just mail 'em too you. I'll even pay for the stamp.

Good karma coming your way.

 

[bongoboy]

Good karma coming your way.

I can only hope...

 

[miroslav]

 

[bongoboy]

Man, why did you do that? Another relic. There are some things that are best left forgotten, much less made louder.

 

[Greg_L]

I didn't call anyone a "dinosaur"....you brought it up.

You and others being a dinosaur has everything to do with your "get off my lawn" mentality, not your music.

And I get yours about same-old-arguments....but you know, they only become that when someone has a problem with people discussing a topic, and they come in to pooh-pooh the discussion.

There is no "discussion". It's just dinosaurs high fiving each other. That's why I "pooh pooh" it. Like I said, come up with something fresh. A new angle. I'd love to read a fresh idea on the subject instead of a bunch of geezers bellyaching over and over.

Thing is, "loudness" actually IS still an active discussion in pro audio circles,

Internet message boards are not pro audio circles.

and the engineers that make up that crowd ARE looking for ways to fix the problem of smashing the shit out of every piece of music JUST to get more level...

Nope. It's not a problem at all. It's the norm. Been that way since the early 90s. It's only a problem to a small handful of nostalgic audiophiles and internet superheros with a lot of time on their hands.

The funny thing is that there are more people who still do things with some dynamics and people who still appreciate the fine details in audio quality than you may think. .....

I don't doubt it, and I haven't said anything otherwise. I said point-blank earlier to do your mixes and masters however you want. Listen to all the "dynamic" music you want to listen to. That's part of your collective flawed perception of the "loudness war". You act as if there's a man in a leather trench coat standing next to you with a gun to your head making you squash your mixes. He's forcing you to listen to only modern corporate radio rock masters. That just isn't so. No one is forcing you to listen to anything or do anything to your mixes. So let it go. Make your music the way you want to make it. No one is stopping you.

 

[Greg_L]

By the way, Rami really nailed it down earlier. The "standard" of the old days was nothing more than the limitations of vinyl. I can only assume that records would have been louder and louder had they been able to. Oh the horror! Just turn it down!

Have a nice weekend.

 

[Seafroggys]

I'm one of the younger ones on this forum, I think vinyl is a crappy format, etc. etc.

I used to have the whole WinAmp playlist going like 10 years ago, listening to my 160 kbps MP3's (40 gig hard drive, combined with the many games I played, I only had so much room). I stopped ripping my CD's about 5 years ago, and I don't like buying songs digitally. So now I just set up a half decent hi-fi system with a DVD-A player. It was cheaper than an iPod/iPhone/insert brand here player, and sounds so much better.

Anyway, just so you know where I am coming from, I am kind of with Greg on this one. Yes, I am all for good sound quality, and I make sure my recordings are dynamic but powerful, but I am starting to get tired of the Loundness War arguments too. 4 years ago I was right in there, but now I just get annoyed. It is the same old same old, nothing new. Yeah, Death Magnetic came out in 2008. The arguments haven't changed since 2004. Honestly, the loudness wars don't affect me, I only buy older albums that were remastered in the 90's, or early 00's if that's all that's available. Ironically, Death Magnetic is the one modern CD that I bought.

However, I do have to say, "loud" cuts sound like crap when you crank them. Even on a decent sound system. You crank a moderate cut to the same volume, it sounds great. That's all. That's my two cents.

And shoot, a song I recorded and mastered in my parent's garage (I didn't measure it, but its probably DR 12-14 if you ran it through that program) ended up on local commercial radio, right after the Foo Fighters.

I think the new way to approach it is to stop complaining, appreciate the good music and mixes that you have, and that there are always exceptions to the trend, and appreciate those exceptions.

 

[miroslav]

Oh the horror! Just turn it down!

Again.......it has NOTHING to do with music being too loud to listen to...not sure why keep trying to twist it into that?
It's not about keeping levels down because they are annoying to the "dinosaurs". It's the fact that smashing the shit out of digital audio to get some additional loudness, actually fucks up the sound.
Now, that some people don't care, and that you don't care....that's fine, but just saying "stop talking about it" doesn't change that fact that it fucks up the audio.
The more people DO talk about it, and not in just pro audio circles, but on home-rec forums too, the more the chance it will be improved....and you can still listen to music as LOUD or soft as you want to, it will just sound BETTER...get it?

However, I do have to say, "loud" cuts sound like crap when you crank them. Even on a decent sound system. You crank a moderate cut to the same volume, it sounds great. That's all.

Yup...and that's why some people still keep talking about it.
If those discussions bother other people, then why do they need to get involved in them?
Let the "dinosaurs" and "audiophiles" have their discussions. There's no need for anyone to jump into the threads JUST to tell people to stop talking about the topic.

It's not really about shedding tears for yesteryear and vinyl. I don't much care for vinyl, it's good for a few plays and then it sucks.
What it's about is the fact that digital is praised for being so much better than "dirty old analog"...and then the same people who embrace the "transparent, pristine quality of digital audio" are then crushing it at the end, just for a few more dBs....when there's no need to.

Oh...and even now, there is a "standard", but instead of choosing what is best, the "standard" is being dictated by limits of the digital format (like with vynil)....it just sounds much worse than vinyl at comparable levels...but we already know that.

 

[Greg_L]

Lol. Whoosh, still flying right over miro's head. That's cool. Fight the good fight, miro.

 

[LeadPaint]

Again.......it has NOTHING to do with music being too loud to listen to...

It kind of does. Lots of good music gets mastered so loud it counteracts the enjoyment of listening to it, for me.

 

[Seafroggys]

What I forgot to mention too, is that loud masters actually sound half decent at quiet volumes. Which is the volume most people play music at nowadays (mainly because nobody actually buys decent sound systems anymore, or speakers at all). I think that's why there hasn't been the 'general uproar' that the audiophiles have been hoping to happen.

Which is why Death Magnetic doesn't sound that bad when its played quietly in the background, but if I pop in Master of Puppets I'm cranking that mother.

 

[miroslav]

It kind of does. Lots of good music gets mastered so loud it counteracts the enjoyment of listening to it, for me.

Yeah...if you set the volume where you normally like it, then yeah, the stuff that was mastered for LOUD will be that much more annoying.
I was just pointing out that it's not about the so-called "dinosaurs" not liking anything loud.
It's just stupid to force a few extra dBs into the actual master, at the expense of the audio quality...when it's pretty easy to set your system volume LOUD if that's what you like.

Oh...and the argument that the "dinosaurs" lost the loudness war, is really not really the case, since many "kids" don't even know anything better then over-compressed, shitty lower rate MP3 music....there was no war they were aware of.
Convenience is what won out....but that too is changing, and eventually high-Q audio will be possible even for the download/ear bud crowd...and that's when it will become apparent what the over-crushed stuff is really doing.
So there was never a real loudness war for the listeners....that's only something that happened in-between the artists/studios and mastering guys, but in the end, the listener will once again drift back to High-Q music, and the nastiness of the slammed stuff will become apparent.

I don't think it's over, like forever.
Audio quality awareness will change once again for listeners once it's combined with convenience.

 

[Rod Norman]

Just turn it up?

This subject keeps coming up. Just turn it up is NOT necessary if the dynamics of the original mix are correctly mastered. What works is a phenomenon called "perceived loudness". Hold your hands up to your ears with the palms pointing forward and speak. You will hear the sense of volume increase, even though you are not talking louder. A good mix looks for the frequencies that raise this perceived volume and enhances them while diminishing those that sound boxy. When the song comes on, it sounds loud, but there are great dynamics.

Dynamic have several facets. One is loudness, the other is orchestration. Orchestration is the presence or lack of frequencies in a mix. An orchestra has different instruments to fill those frequencies. When a mastering engineer works on your mix, they are looking to focus the ear on those frequencies that fill that area of the spectrum. As a drummer, I often enhance the song by lightening up a LOT on the right hand cymbal work to allow the lower and mid frequencies of the bass drum and the snare to stand out.

A good way to approach mastering is to try the presets first on the multi-band compressor. Often you will find one that works for you. Avoid "slamming" a mix. It doesn't make it louder because people turn down their system to compensate for it. THAT is why dynamic mixes often sound quieter.

The solution? In the opening of your mix, enhance those frequencies to stand out on a level with the loudness you want. If a single guitar starts, enhance the frequencies to make it stand out. Then ease it back as the other instruments and the vocals come in. People won't have to turn up the volume. I hope that helps. Good luck,
Rod Norman

Mastering right now is about being loud. It is so annoying. I have heard re-mastered versions of great albums like Supertramp - Breakfast In America and they just ruined that wonderful mix.
Just turn the volume up that's all. I had to say this.
Thank you

 

[ruben68]

Guys please listen to the last DAFT PUNK album. There is hope!!! And also listen to the last STEVEN WILSON album. It is just great sound released in 2013. Well, I'm one of those guys that still listens to a lot of music and sometimes it is good to find people who agree with me in not being unnecessarily loud.