Why record with a computer when there are all-in-one portastudios?

[mjbphotos]

I think it's funny that people are arguing cost and flexibility/track count as both benefits of a computer. That's extremely misleading. Let's say that you don't need to buy a computer because you already have one. That's already assuming a lot, because most people will also tell you that your music computer should be dedicated only to that. Nonetheless, let's say that you don't have to buy a computer. In order to do things like "record 32 tracks at once" (as Bobbsy mentioned), you'd need:

A 32-channel A/I or 32 channels combined of A/I!
Now I'm no computer recording expert. I like analog for my own stuff, but I have a small DAW rig for my work for the editing features. I put that together with an $80 Dell and an M-Audio Delta 1010LT (8 in, 8 out) A/I for $200 (new). And that's all I've needed because I was able to use the mixer from my analog rig. So I have no idea how much 32 channels of A/I cost, but I can't imagine it's cheap. I don't even know if you could use 4 separate Delta 1010LT's to do that (like I said, I'm no expert). But even if you could, and you bought them used (about $75 on ebay), that alone would put you at $300.

Maybe Bobbsy DOES have a 32-input AI, but I think what he meant is he can mix down 32+ tracks at one time - no bouncing needed. You can't do that with stand-alone recorders. As I mentioned with the little Boss BR600, it was 8 tracks (4 mono and 2 stereo) at a time, after you did 1 bounce, then you had your bounced stereo track, so only 6 more tracks next bounce ...

Portability, for sure the stand-alone wins. Then again, when I see any pro/semi-pro bands recording their gigs, they are not using a stand-alone. They've got a laptop hooked directly to their soundboard via some type of interface.

Computer issues - had a weird 'hang-up' with Reaper a month or two back, but all I had to do was reboot Reaper each time. Harddrive crashed on my last computer. Driver issues - nope. Plug-in problems - a couple that didn't want to load, but they were freebies, I just deleted them. I mentioned the power supply issue with the Boss. Also had a problem with the selection wheel thingie - would jump around when turned too fast, just was wearing out, I guess, that would have been another $75+ to fix, if I had wanted to.
Just like recording to 4-track cassette machines 20 years ago, recording with any device gives you experience that you can then move on with. I don't regret the Boss purchase, but at the same time wish I had moved up to computer recording sooner!

 

[heatmiser]

Plus, no standalone can run UAD plugs!!!

Mine can. Although it does require an optional device to allow the use of 3rd party plugs - one which I've yet to buy.

Personally, I really like computers for gathering and sharing information, but not much else.

 

[famous beagle]

Maybe Bobbsy DOES have a 32-input AI, but I think what he meant is he can mix down 32+ tracks at one time - no bouncing needed. You can't do that with stand-alone recorders. As I mentioned with the little Boss BR600, it was 8 tracks (4 mono and 2 stereo) at a time, after you did 1 bounce, then you had your bounced stereo track, so only 6 more tracks next bounce ...

I'm pretty sure Bobbsy said he could record 32 tracks at once. And for that, you need a hell of an interface (or interfaces).

 

[Chili]

Mine can. Although it does require an optional device to allow the use of 3rd party plugs - one which I've yet to buy.

Hmm, probably not UAD. UAD plugs will run only on their own DSP cards.

 

[heatmiser]

Hmm, probably not UAD. UAD plugs will run only on their own DSP cards.

Grrr. You 'puter people with your acronyms! You've lost me. Sorry.

I thought UAD stood for Universal Audio plugs which my standalone will accept. I dunno what DSP stands for either? Probably, Doesn't Support Pete?

 

[Chili]

Grrr. You 'puter people with your acronyms! You've lost me. Sorry.

I thought UAD stood for Universal Audio plugs which my standalone will accept. I dunno what DSP stands for either? Probably, Doesn't Support Pete?

Well now wait... UAD is Universal Audio. What standalone do you have?? Maybe I'm about to learn something new!!!

 

[Bobbsy]

Maybe Bobbsy DOES have a 32-input AI, but I think what he meant is he can mix down 32+ tracks at one time - no bouncing needed. You can't do that with stand-alone recorders. As I mentioned with the little Boss BR600, it was 8 tracks (4 mono and 2 stereo) at a time, after you did 1 bounce, then you had your bounced stereo track, so only 6 more tracks next bounce ...

Just for the record, I can (and do very occasionally--always one off recordings of live stuff, not in the home) record 32 simultaneous tracks. However, it's something I try to avoid--it tends to be brown trousers time! With the same gear I could also mix 32 channels OTB but I tend to actually mix ITB and often my mixes go to more than 32 tracks. However, where the OTB mix capability is very useful is at the "hey that went well--let's listen to what we recorded" stage. I can use "real" faders to do a quick mix on the fly, even add a bit of reverb or whatever. It's much better than the usual "I know that's quiet/sounds a bit boring/do I really sound that bad" stage where I'd have to say "Don't worry, it'll be great in the mix".

My computer skills are only average but I have a few golden rules:

-Find a good "optimise your computer for recording sound" site and follow the directions.

-Delete any and all unnecessary rubbish from your computer if you're going to do sound.

-Shut down (or, better still, don't boot) even necessary rubbish when you're going to do sound.

-Do a reboot before you start anything important

 

[fns]

Brusko brings up an interesting question because I am going through the same thing. I thought the DAW made since I have a puter sitting here in my lap right now-but then all those times it rebooted itself came to mind (and i have a pretty industrial lap top!). I record live and can't afford a gratis shutdown. Reading through customer reviews of the audio interfaces evidently "blue screen" is a common enough problem. Does anyone have similar problems with "Studio In a Box" All-in-one units? They are computers inside after all--

FS

 

[Bobbsy]

Properly done, stand alone solutions should be more stable because, despite being effectively computers in a box, they contain only software they specifically need to do their job and nothing extraneous. They also don't have to interact with third part software like interfaces--and driver mismatches are a huge source of problems.

As an aside, that's both why Macs are more expensive and perceived as more stable. Apple try to tightly control the software and, to some extent, hardware, that can be connected.

Having said all that (and at the risk of tempting fate) I just don't seem to have the level of problems others do--but I'm very obsessive about checking anything and everything before I install it on my computer.

 

[witzendoz]

Brusko brings up an interesting question because I am going through the same thing. I thought the DAW made since I have a puter sitting here in my lap right now-but then all those times it rebooted itself came to mind (and i have a pretty industrial lap top!). I record live and can't afford a gratis shutdown. Reading through customer reviews of the audio interfaces evidently "blue screen" is a common enough problem. Does anyone have similar problems with "Studio In a Box" All-in-one units? They are computers inside after all--

FS

I am going to give an answer here that will take us off track a little but bring us back to the real world.

Nothing is fool proof and 100% reliable. Back in the days of tape machines half way through a take or live show there could be a mechanical or electrical fault. I have more than once (but seldom) recorded a take only to find that a small piece of oxide had fouled the head and caused a drop out.

Computers are not 100% reliable and never will be, the trick is to make the computer as close to 100% as possible.

All-in-one recorders are never going to be 100% reliable, but again as long as they are designed to be as close to 100% reliable we can ask no more.

When guys record live shows and have to capture the show at all costs, they will have redundancy, 2 machines recording, plus sometimes a separate recording system in place as well, even recording the front of house mix as a last resort option. They will have UPS supplies on everything to prevent a loss due to a power out. Still not 100% but reducing the chance of a loss of recording as much as possible.

In the studio and live I use a stand alone hard disc recorder, it has been as close to 100% as possible, I trust it a whole lot more than a computer system. The hard disc recorder was designed to record music, a computer was designed to write letters, surf the net, play games, etc etc, oh and a by-product is that you can record music on it LOL.

Bottom line, I use both, but a stand alone is easier to use if you are not computer savvy (or Doc Varney).

Alan.

 

[Bobbsy]

Of course there's a half way house--or at least there used to be. A standalone multitrack recorder like the old Alesis HD24 hooked to a mixer was a very good...and very reliable...way to record stuff. It also provided for direct transfer to a computer for the mixing and editing stage which can be where a computer DAW can really shine.

Alas, that sort of solution has gone out of fashion but, to my mind, was an excellent compromise.

 

[Doctor Varney]

Bottom line, I use both, but a stand alone is easier to use if you are not computer savvy (or Doc Varney).

Alan, you made a well considered post which indeed represents the reality of technology. Of course, even an axle on a cart can break and thank you for addressing the myth that there was ever a golden age of 'Technological perfection'.

Then you have to...

I'm not going to labour it here or make a fuss. Put simply... it's time to lay off. If you get the hint, you have my thanks. I'm not just picking on you, it goes for everyone.

Regards

Ade

 

[Doctor Varney]

Back to stand-alones. The computer I've built is showing improved stability after a difficult teething time, so at least it's there now for the editing side. If I quadrupled my budget and could put a 'disaster plan' (back up machine) into action then perhaps I would persevere with computer recording. It's not like I don't know how to record using computer software and I seem to have a good ear for mixing when I put my mind to it. When it comes to DAW editing, I'm a little more savvy than some of you make me out to be. I'm about to install a silent cooling system and an enhanced graphics card to take up some of the memory load for editing. But the stand-alone recorder is part of a plan which does not leave all my eggs in one basket. If it turns out not to be reliable then I'll re-think the plan but so far all I'm getting at my end is a recording solution without extra layers to distract me from my creative thinking. These simple little machines definitely have that effect, even though I'm proficient with the DAW - and I can't say fairer than that.

 

[witzendoz]

I'm not going to labour it here or make a fuss. Put simply... it's time to lay off. If you get the hint, you have my thanks. I'm not just picking on you, it goes for everyone.

Regards

Ade

Point taken and, Sorry Ade.

Allan.

 

[heatmiser]

Well now wait... UAD is Universal Audio. What standalone do you have?? Maybe I'm about to learn something new!!!

I have a Roland VS-2400. You can find 'em used on ebay for about what a new tascam would cost.

I've got it hooked up to a monitor and a mouse (you can also connect a keyboard, but I have no need for that). It's got 24 tracks, 8 inputs with phantom power, motorized faders...pretty cool. If this one ever dies I'll probably just buy another one.

I have one FX card that allows me to use all the Roland FX, but if you want to use 3rd party plugs, you have to buy an additional FX card.

I downloaded Reaper once and looked around and it really made no sense to me. Then I realized I'd have to buy an interface...then I realized the entire family shares this computer, so that whole set up doesn't work for me.

 

[Lt. Bob]

Of course there's a half way house--or at least there used to be. A standalone multitrack recorder like the old Alesis HD24 hooked to a mixer was a very good...and very reliable...way to record stuff. It also provided for direct transfer to a computer for the mixing and editing stage which can be where a computer DAW can really shine.

Alas, that sort of solution has gone out of fashion but, to my mind, was an excellent compromise.

which is exactly how I do it.
I use a Fostex D1624 and I'm about to get a second one in a flight case.
I don't , however, bother to mix and edit on a puter.
I still just ride faders and such.
Works fine for moi.

 

[Lt. Bob]

Alan, you made a well considered post which indeed represents the reality of technology. Of course, even an axle on a cart can break and thank you for addressing the myth that there was ever a golden age of 'Technological perfection'.

Then you have to...

I'm not going to labour it here or make a fuss. Put simply... it's time to lay off. If you get the hint, you have my thanks. I'm not just picking on you, it goes for everyone.

Regards

Ade

it was a joke and a mild one and simply showed a recognition of your countless threads about that very subject.

Don't see how in the world that could possibly be taken offense at or be something that people should "lay off".

people have gotten so thin skinned nowadays.
So everyone lay off helping the Doc. Might upset him.

 

[Doctor Varney]

it was a joke and a mild one and simply showed a recognition of your countless threads about that very subject.

Don't see how in the world that could possibly be taken offense at or be something that people should "lay off".

people have gotten so thin skinned nowadays.
So everyone lay off helping the Doc. Might upset him.

Alan said sorry. I thanked him privately. He did not mean any harm and that is a reflection of his character. It's settled.

This is nothing to do with you. So let's not waste time creating an argument, where one is not needed.

It would be nice if we could stay OT.

It's not about being 'thin skinned'. I have had a belly full of it - and some people have made too much of it. Since I would do the same for you, it is not too much to ask of people for a little consideration. Whether they decide to or not, is up to them.

Thank you for your understanding.

 

[Doctor Varney]

Anyway, back to the subject.

In the studio and live I use a stand alone hard disc recorder, it has been as close to 100% as possible, I trust it a whole lot more than a computer system. The hard disc recorder was designed to record music, a computer was designed to write letters, surf the net, play games, etc etc, oh and a by-product is that you can record music on it LOL.

I completely agree with this but despite what I have said about computers, I do have a lot of control over the final editing process in my DAW. It also allows me to create scores without needing to know any music. So yes, it has it's place. When I was relying on the computer to do everything, a last minute recording problem could be extremely embarrassing and inconvenient, depending on whether anyone else was involved. To get a computer to record multiple tracks you need layers to iron out latency but when reviewing a mix, it doesn't seem to be so much of a problem. Therefore, I can edit on any computer now which happens to be working. The Fostex recorder has lifted away that extra fragile layer for me and left me with a certain peace of mind.

I happen to live just around the corner from Bob Lamb, who recorded UB40, Black Sabbath and many other well known bands of the 70s and 80s. A few years ago, he opened up another studio down the road expressly for digital recording and editing. The old studio (over which I believe he still lives) has been left as an analogue set up to cater for those still wanting the older ways. I notice that the digital studio has Macintosh computers at it's epicentre. Bob is of an older generation, and reached the height of his career before computers were really so common in the music industry. Thus, it makes sense that he would go for an Apple deal, since I can't imagine someone like him having the time to maintain and troubleshoot technology when there is work to be done. It's because of people like him and so many others that I would be more inclined to trust the Mac - if only because of it's limitations. Sometimes, less is definitely more. In just my own small way, I've proven this to myself by lifting away a potentially troublesome layer to my game and I can relax and get on with being creative.

The question is, though, if I continue on in my way, will I even need a Mac? Well, I would definitely like one. If I had a Mac tomorrow, would I still keep a PC? Well, I think, yes I would. For some things - plus, there are no plans at all for FL Studio to go Mac and unfortunately, my licences are not transferable. I've been able to make good use of 3rd party plugins. I have not had much trouble with free plugins, they hardly ever seem to be an issue. If they crash, the computer carries on working. In my experience, it's less the plugins but more the operating system itself (Windows), which has caused the most grief, to be honest.

 

[Bobbsy]

Anyway, back to the subject.



I completely agree with this but despite what I have said about computers, I do have a lot of control over the final editing process in my DAW. It also allows me to create scores without needing to know any music. So yes, it has it's place. When I was relying on the computer to do everything, a last minute recording problem could be extremely embarrassing and inconvenient, depending on whether anyone else was involved. To get a computer to record multiple tracks you need layers to iron out latency but when reviewing a mix, it doesn't seem to be so much of a problem. Therefore, I can edit on any computer now which happens to be working. The Fostex recorder has lifted away that extra fragile layer for me and left me with a certain peace of mind.

I happen to live just around the corner from Bob Lamb, who recorded UB40, Black Sabbath and many other well known bands of the 70s and 80s. A few years ago, he opened up another studio down the road expressly for digital recording and editing. The old studio (over which I believe he still lives) has been left as an analogue set up to cater for those still wanting the older ways. I notice that the digital studio has Macintosh computers at it's epicentre. Bob is of an older generation, and reached the height of his career before computers were really so common in the music industry. Thus, it makes sense that he would go for an Apple deal, since I can't imagine someone like him having the time to maintain and troubleshoot technology when there is work to be done. It's because of people like him and so many others that I would be more inclined to trust the Mac - if only because of it's limitations. Sometimes, less is definitely more. In just my own small way, I've proven this to myself by lifting away a potentially troublesome layer to my game and I can relax and get on with being creative.

The question is, though, if I continue on in my way, will I even need a Mac? If I had a Mac tomorrow, would I still keep a PC? Well, I think, yes I would. For some things. I have not had much trouble with the 3rd party free plugins, they hardly ever seem to be an issue. In my experience, it's less the plugins but more the operating system itself (Windows), which has caused the most grief.

Nobody "needs" a Mac (just like nobody "needs a Windows PC". It's down to personal preference pure and simple. However, just as an aside, if you go the Apple route, I believe it's possible to run Windows emulators so you may find you can run any Windows stuff on the Mac, negating the need for a second computer (unless you just want one).

Personally, I'm a Windows users--but really just because when my work handed out computers way back when, they gave me an old PC (not even Windows...I had to learn DOS!) and it made sense to keep going. I have to use a Mac at the local theatre sometimes and I can do all the basics...but it'll never catch up with 30ish years of PC experience. The reality is the both systems have advantages and disadvantages and anyone who states that one is categorically better than the other is talking tosh. Go with what you want.

Like the new sig BTW!