Much better mic, not much better recordings

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schweinhundert

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I've been recording in my home for awhile now, mainly using an AT2020 condenser going into my Focusrite Saffire Pro 40. Guitar micing with the AT2020 has been fine, but I was always disappointed with my piano mic. It never sounds close to what my ears hear, muddy and far-away sounding. I tried coupling that with a couple CAD GXL2200 mics located around the piano, which helped but still wasn't great.

So, finally I got up the nerve (or insanity) to invest in a much better microphone, a Neumann TLM 103. There were plenty of detractors online, but most people said it was professional quality.

Well, tonight I did a side by side comparison. The TLM 103 was indeed much better with fingerstyle guitar than the AT2020. But on piano, I couldn't tell that much of a difference. I tried a variety of micing setups: near the strings, back near the player's ear (as is sometimes recommended), preamp set to high and low gain, nothing ever sounds very clear, and there's no real improvement from the > $1k mic than the $100 mic!

Some people online suggest that the TLM 103 must be paired with a nice preamp to sound good at all. Others say the Saffire Pro 40 preamp is fine. Who's right? Should I return this thing, or is there something I'm missing? I can't drop another thousand bucks on a preamp to run the mic.

Any advice for a newbie is appreciated. Thanks.

I'll provide some information, in case it's relevant. DAW is Logic, interface is Focusrite Saffire Pro 40. This is using the Pro 40's built in preamps and phantom power for the mics. I'm not using any EQ or compression right now, just trying to see how good of a sound the mic can produce by itself (no difference, in my ears). My headphones are Sennheiser HD 280s. Any other info needed, please ask. I can do a test recording if that's helpful.
 
schweinhundert said:
I've been recording in my home for awhile now, mainly using an AT2020 condenser going into my Focusrite Saffire Pro 40. Guitar micing with the AT2020 has been fine, but I was always disappointed with my piano mic. It never sounds close to what my ears hear, muddy and far-away sounding. I tried coupling that with a couple CAD GXL2200 mics located around the piano, which helped but still wasn't great.

So, finally I got up the nerve (or insanity) to invest in a much better microphone, a Neumann TLM 103. There were plenty of detractors online, but most people said it was professional quality.

Well, tonight I did a side by side comparison. The TLM 103 was indeed much better with fingerstyle guitar than the AT2020. But on piano, I couldn't tell that much of a difference. I tried a variety of micing setups: near the strings, back near the player's ear (as is sometimes recommended), preamp set to high and low gain, nothing ever sounds very clear, and there's no real improvement from the > $1k mic than the $100 mic!

Some people online suggest that the TLM 103 must be paired with a nice preamp to sound good at all. Others say the Saffire Pro 40 preamp is fine. Who's right? Should I return this thing, or is there something I'm missing? I can't drop another thousand bucks on a preamp to run the mic.

Any advice for a newbie is appreciated. Thanks.

I'll provide some information, in case it's relevant. DAW is Logic, interface is Focusrite Saffire Pro 40. This is using the Pro 40's built in preamps and phantom power for the mics. I'm not using any EQ or compression right now, just trying to see how good of a sound the mic can produce by itself (no difference, in my ears). My headphones are Sennheiser HD 280s. Any other info needed, please ask. I can do a test recording if that's helpful.
Click to expand...

I contributed a Sound Devices USBPre 2 and a Sennheiser MK4 LDC, while a friend contributed a VERY nice guitar and an old-school TLM-103 to a little shoot-out. The files appear below:




The TLM-103 is a very nice mic, but is it $750 nicer then the Sennheiser MK4? You decide, but the general consensus has been that the MK4 is crisper and more defined.

Personally I'd ship the TLM-103 back.

Luck.
 
Acoustic guitar (small, quiet) and piano (big, loud) are much different things to mic. Your recording environment will play a much larger role in the quality of the your final recording for a piano than it will for fingerstyle acoustic guitar.

What type of room is the piano in?

Can you post some sound files?
 
Armistice said:
Your recording environment will play a much larger role in the quality of the your final recording for a piano than it will for fingerstyle acoustic guitar.
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Amen to that man! If the piano sounds great in the room, then it should be much easier to get a great sounding recording. If you can hear a notable difference between the two mics on a finger style acoustic guitar then i'd suggest that there's nothing wrong the mics or pre's and start looking at other variables, mainly the instrument and room itself.

On Wheelema's little clips, i prefere the sound of the TLM103, even though i agree that the MK4 is more defined (for the piece i like how the TLM103 kinda "softens" out the sound and balances, but that's just my opinion), but whether it's $750 better, or if it's "better" at all is very subjective. In that example, that's the take i'd use, but as wheelema said, many prefer the MK4.
 
Oh man , watching this thread, been looking at a 103, somebody chime in here!!
 
Oh yea, Have you tried it just as a room mic?. Or maybe, one close one room?
 
Armistice said:
Acoustic guitar (small, quiet) and piano (big, loud) are much different things to mic. Your recording environment will play a much larger role in the quality of the your final recording for a piano than it will for fingerstyle acoustic guitar.

What type of room is the piano in?

Can you post some sound files?
Click to expand...


That's the first thing I thought of: the recording environment. Is this a grand or baby grand piano? have you tried with lid open at various angles (and the different mic positions at the same time)?
 
The piano is a Yamaha U3 (upright). The room I have it in is carpeted with some acoustic paneling on the walls (windows sealed). The sound in the room is pretty nice for me, not a lot of reflection, minimal outside noise. I have tried with both mics far from and near to the piano, with the cover of the piano on and off.

I'm happy to make some test recordings; can someone tell me exactly what tests to make? What positions do you guys want?
 
Test recordings

Hi, sorry I was delayed in posting this. I recorded the two mics under a few different conditions. In particular, I recorded the piano far and near with both mics. I'm not saying the quality of the playing is good, it's just for example. I have applied no EQ or compression. The volume was approximately the same on both mics with the same preamp setting (6 out of 10). The forum will not let me link;

youtu.be/Q3ebYbtTYDM

Any thoughts? Do people think this is an acoustics problem? If so, what would be the most useful thing to try?

Thanks all
 
To make life easier;



tbf, i kinda see what you mean. To me there's a really noticeable difference on the acoustic guitar, and some difference when the mics are 4 foot back from the piano, but at 1 foot there seems to be much less difference. However, i actually think the sound from both mics at 1 foot back from the piano sounds pretty sweet tbh. For the piano i'd be really tempted to use the TLM103 where you had it at 1 foot back, and then put the AT2020 futher back in the room and record both simultaneously.
 
That's definitely something to try, thanks. Yeah, I have just read so much about this mic and comparable ones, statements like "it's like there's nothing in between the microphone and the speaker", and that's just a total lie. It is a better mic, but I'm getting the impression that there's no such thing as a mic they describe.
 
It's strange man as i've already read things like "although it tries to be a U87, is is very much not a U87" and words like "brash" and "harsh" have appeared on stuff i've read (but these are usually people comparing it to the U87 or even the TLM102) I suppose we've been reading very different articles/reviews :rolleyes:

Tbf as well, there are always a hell of a lot of things to take into account when recordings; the instrument, the room, the player, the mic, the positioning of the mic, the cables, the preamps, the converters, what other instruments the thing you're recording is going to go along side with in the mix, what element of the sound you want to capture etc etc etc

With the gear you've got, and based on the quick recording you did, i'd say there's nothing inherently wrong with it. In fact, as i've already said, i quite like the piano sound at 1 foot back. The AT2020 on the acoustic guitar did sound god awful imo but on the piano at 1 foot it sounded pretty sweet. if you're not happy though, there are plenty of mics in the world that may work better for your needs. some cheaper, some more expensive. i know exactly what you mean when you said "you wanted your first proper mic" (or words to that effect) but price doesn't always relate to the right mic for the job.

If you've already bought it outright and can't return it to get your money back, then i'd say stick with it for a while, get used to how it sounds, and if you're still not happy after a month or so then sell it on (you probably wouldn't lose that much money selling it second hand, they seem to keep their value to an extent) and get back to reading, listening, and auditioning other mics. Every mic has it's own character and flavour, and the preamps on the Forcusrite are plenty clean enough for you to appreciate those differences. It may even be worth looking at a pair of Small Diaphragm Condenser (SDC) mics for recording acoustic guitar and piano.

The other thing to remember is that, although many home recordists want that jack-of-all-trades mic that will work for every single thing we want to aim it at, the reality is often that a collection of mics, even a relatively small collection of mics, offer much more versatility. A mic that works for your acoustic may not work so well on the piano, and vice verse (as the clip you put up shows quite well i think)

Just my thoughts :)
 
I appreciate that, those comments are very helpful. In reality, the AT2020 can sound much better than this, particularly when placed nearer the guitar itself. Honestly, I do like how the new mic sounds. I could return it, but I probably won't. Like you said, I could always sell it second-hand (I regularly see these for $700 on ebay and the like). It may be that the best EQed recording I can make with this pair is much better than the best I could do with the AT2020 and extra cheap CADs; only experimentation will tell, I suppose.
 
Tbf, the AT2020 on the piano is one of the few times i've heard it and thought "wow, that's not bad" (i really am not a fan of that mic, but that's just my taste and i have friends who swear by it for vocals and acoustic guitar)

schweinhundert said:
only experimentation will tell, I suppose.
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Alas, welcome to the world of home recordists everywhere. That may sound cynical, but i don't mean it in a negative way. To me, experimenting is one of, if not the most fun part when recording. When you find something that works, take a picture of the setup and make a note of it so you can easily repeat it. The only thing i'd add, and this is purely my opinion and as i said before, is that it may be worth picking up a pair of SDC's. The Oktava MK012's are very reasonably priced (i don't know the US $ conversion, but a pair is about £280 this side of the pond) and are very highly regarded for a reason. Even something like the Karma Audio Silver Bullets would be pretty cool. The TLM103, the AT2020, and a pair of nice-ish SDC's would be a very nice little collection that could easily cover a wide range of sources very well.

Stick at it man and let us know how you get on :)
 
ecc83 said:
The piano is a notoriously difficult beast to record.
My approach would be stereo. Crossed cardiods, better crossed fig 8s or M-S. The room of course is important. You say the piano sounds fine in it but have you heard it with someone else playing?

As ever you will find articles about recording just about anything at Sound On Sound | Recording Techniques | Audio Technology | Music Production | Computer Music | Video Media

Dave. Ooo!...Recording Techniques For Upright Piano
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I agree with ecc83. An acoustic guitar is a fairly tight, focused sound--at least relative to a piano--so you're able to record that fairly easily. But the soundboard of a piano is big and wide, and when you're sitting there playing it, your ears are hearing (in stereo) that big wide sound. Problem is, a single mic, pointed at a single spot on that soundboard, isn't hearing what your ears hear. So it's necessarily "smaller" sounding.

Unless I'm going for a narrow "honky-tonk" kind of piano sound, I always track 'em in stereo. I didn't check the above links, but given the mics you have, my staring approach would be this:

The AT on the bottom end, about 20 keys up. The Nuemann on the high end, about 20 keys down. (You'll have to play with it to see how far back sounds best.) Record each to a separate track and I'd start with the low end track panned at 25% L and the high end track panned at 75% R. You'll also have to play with the panning to see what sounds best. (Although in my experience, whereas some things--like acoustic guitar--sound good panned hard left and right, this sometimes leaves a "hole" in the midrange of a piano. That's why I offer 25% and 75% as a starting point.)
 
Great advice all around. I have seen that SOS article before, and I will revisit it now. Some people recommend an SDC on the high end and a LDC on the low-end, on either side of the player's head. When I tried this setup with two LDCs, it kind of sounded awful, but maybe I needed to fiddle with it a bit more. At this point, I may have a big enough mic collection to try a 4 mic setup without too much trouble (setting up all those booms is going to be kind of a nightmare, though). I'll see how that goes.
 
schweinhundert said:
Great advice all around. I have seen that SOS article before, and I will revisit it now. Some people recommend an SDC on the high end and a LDC on the low-end, on either side of the player's head. When I tried this setup with two LDCs, it kind of sounded awful, but maybe I needed to fiddle with it a bit more. At this point, I may have a big enough mic collection to try a 4 mic setup without too much trouble (setting up all those booms is going to be kind of a nightmare, though). I'll see how that goes.
Click to expand...

Four mics is gonna get tricky. You really should be able to seriously improve the sound with two. My advice would be to get it dialed in with two mics before getting any more complicated. (But if I did do 4 mics--it would be two up close, and two in the back of the room for some natural ambience. Those back two mics would be added to the mix sparingly.)
 
Also--what sounded bad with your two mic attempt? Did you play with the physical distance between the two mics, and then the panning of the two tracks?

One last thought--besides the distance between the two mics, how far away they are from the piano is critical to getting the sound you want. The closer you get, the more you pick up the sound of the hammers, for a real intimate sound. The further back you are, the less detail you get, but the more room you get. Last time I tracked a real piano, I must've tried ten different distances before I found the balance I wanted.

EDIT--I just checked out the SOS article. Very different approaches than I was thinking. But then, the last piano I tracked was a grand and I got good results with a pair of SDCs under the lid and spread over the soundboard. By all mean, start with the advice in the SOS article and see how far that gets you.
 
schweinhundert said:
Well, tonight I did a side by side comparison. The TLM 103 was indeed much better with fingerstyle guitar
Click to expand...

To me the 103 shines in exactly this usage on acoustic guitar. I haven't tried to mic a piano so can't help there, but as a rec give the 103 a try with drums also.
 
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