Vocal condensers as OH's

[Tomm Williams]

Have a friend who asked for suggestions for OH's for live use. After giving him a few, he asked about using some of his Beta87's as OH's. Can't recall anyone ever asking that question. Anybody ever try that?

 

[mixsit]

No. But heard a real nice sounding top-of-the-kit (Freeborn Hall back a bit) that were 57's.
So put me in the 'why not? camp.

 

[dgatwood]

Have a friend who asked for suggestions for OH's for live use. After giving him a few, he asked about using some of his Beta87's as OH's. Can't recall anyone ever asking that question. Anybody ever try that?

If you're using it with a full set of dynamic kit mics (a mic on each tom, a mic on the snare, a mic on/in the kick, and a pair of overheads), I suspect that they should be serviceable. That said, you'll probably want to pair them (at minimum) with a good mic on your kick (and probably your floor tom), because according to their response curves, their low end appears to fall off pretty quickly below about 100-200 Hz, depending on whether we're talking about the original 87/87A or an 87C.

Compare to, for example, the Oktava MK-012, whose cardioid element is pretty much flat down to 60 Hz, and down by only about 3-4 dB down to 20 Hz. That's why they make awesome drum kit overheads. If you had to, you could get a halfway decent sound using them by themselves.

 

[mixsit]

If you're using it with a full set of dynamic kit mics (a mic on each tom, a mic on the snare, a mic on/in the kick, and a pair of overheads), I suspect that they should be serviceable. That said, you'll probably want to pair them (at minimum) with a good mic on your kick (and probably your floor tom), because according to their response curves, their low end appears to fall off pretty quickly below about 100-200 Hz, depending on whether we're talking about the original 87/87A or an 87C.

Compare to, for example, the Oktava MK-012, whose cardioid element is pretty much flat down to 60 Hz, and down by only about 3-4 dB down to 20 Hz. That's why they make awesome drum kit overheads. If you had to, you could get a halfway decent sound using them by themselves.

I do little SR work so I'll ask- how much of that lower bandwidth would you might likely toss anyway?

 

[Toastedgoat]

I've seen vocal condenser mics used for OH both live and in the studio. Though I prefer a more unidirectional mic for live use. That said at last weeks gig, I just use a kick, snare and 1 over head mic a cheap Chinese Avlex mic I had laying around. I was surprised at how good the drum sound was out of the OH mic.

The problem I have had live with most vocal condenser mics is low end rumble, and stage noise. It's why I usually prefer uni directional condenser mics. Because it's live and I'm not rich. I look for something that works well, and isn't too expensive. For me the solution came with a bit of research, and trial and error.. So for now I use the oktava mk-012 mics for live OH most of the time. stereo pair for around $255.00 or so.

 

[dgatwood]

I do little SR work so I'll ask- how much of that lower bandwidth would you might likely toss anyway?

None of it when you're tracking drums. Your kick likely sits down in the ballpark of 50-80 Hz. You actually need those frequencies.

If you're getting stage rumble and other problems, you shouldn't try to fix that by rolling off part of the sound, because you'll lose part of the sound. The right way to fix those problems is to invest in better mic stands, shock mounts, and mics that have built-in shock damping as part of the capsule mount, if necessary. Or place your mic stands on a carpet square. Or all of the above.

 

[mixsit]

None of it when you're tracking drums. Your kick likely sits down in the ballpark of 50-80 Hz. You actually need those frequencies.

If you're getting stage rumble and other problems, you shouldn't try to fix that by rolling off part of the sound, because you'll lose part of the sound. The right way to fix those problems is to invest in better mic stands, shock mounts, and mics that have built-in shock damping as part of the capsule mount, if necessary. Or place your mic stands on a carpet square. Or all of the above.

QUOTE... suggestions for OH's for live use
I would have thought O/H's would not generally be a primary source for low end on most stages.

 

[dgatwood]

QUOTE... suggestions for OH's for live use
I would have thought O/H's would not generally be a primary source for low end on most stages.

Hard to say. Do you mean for recording a live set or for sound reinforcement?

Normally, when recording, the goal for overheads is to provide an image of the entire kit, to the extent that it is possible to do so, with the other mics being used to augment the image to the extent necessary. I think I would probably do that even if it's a live set. If I decided the bleed interfered too much with the sound from other instruments and stuff, I could always throw it away during the mixdown, but the goal should be to start out with everything raw so that you have the flexibility to use it or not.

For sound reinforcement, I'm not so sure. Usually I've had to mic everything else so that other instruments can be heard over the kit. I can't even fathom doing sound work for a gig that's loud enough to need to make a drum kit louder.

Given enough setup time, I think it's probably better to solve bleed problems by better mic placement, to solve rumble by better mic mounting, and to solve boominess by raising the kit on a platform, moving the kit away from the wall, and raising the mics farther from the floor.

Of course, if there's always time for that, in which case you can always punt my chopping everything out of your overheads but the cymbals and relying on good quality dynamic mics on every piece of the kit. It isn't ideal, but if that's all you have to work with, then that's what you have.

 

[Toastedgoat]

Hard to say. Do you mean for recording a live set or for sound reinforcement?

Normally, when recording, the goal for overheads is to provide an image of the entire kit, to the extent that it is possible to do so, with the other mics being used to augment the image to the extent necessary. I think I would probably do that even if it's a live set. If I decided the bleed interfered too much with the sound from other instruments and stuff, I could always throw it away during the mixdown, but the goal should be to start out with everything raw so that you have the flexibility to use it or not.

For sound reinforcement, I'm not so sure. Usually I've had to mic everything else so that other instruments can be heard over the kit. I can't even fathom doing sound work for a gig that's loud enough to need to make a drum kit louder.

Given enough setup time, I think it's probably better to solve bleed problems by better mic placement, to solve rumble by better mic mounting, and to solve boominess by raising the kit on a platform, moving the kit away from the wall, and raising the mics farther from the floor.

Of course, if there's always time for that, in which case you can always punt my chopping everything out of your overheads but the cymbals and relying on good quality dynamic mics on every piece of the kit. It isn't ideal, but if that's all you have to work with, then that's what you have.

That is usually the issue, not enough time to set up the ideal situation. I too don't like to roll the low end out. I try to capture as much of the kit as I can through the OH's. Low end problems come from , crappy stage, bad location for the drums, bad room, and FOH pushed back up to close to the mics.
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It's not that big of deal to find the problem and eq it out,without losing all the low end.

Last weeks gig was a set up nightmare. Drummer came in way late, no time to tweak anything. went with just a 57 on snare, D112 (meh) on kick and a cheap avlex for OH. after I got everything leveled out the kit sound was pretty good.

I couldn't imagine not mic'n the drums up in a lot of the places, I play , or work sound at.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7naQcaa2Is

and I think the drums are a bit buried in the mix on this one, the singer is a friend of mine, we have quite a bit of music we've done over the the years.