Trying to turn tube

[Greg_L]

at least part of an amp that seems louder than another at the same power levels has to do with the power supply.
The attack of a guitar (transients) can require a greater than rated power for a few mili-seconds.
Say you have a 20 watt amp ...... a sharp transient could use up 50 watts or more for a very brief moment.
If an amp has a power supply that won't let it do that for even a moment, it will not sound as loud as an amp that has a very robust power supply that will allow it.
Those transients can have an effect on how loud we perceive an amp to be.

Interesting. Does that have anything to do with the transformers? My 100 watt Marshall through a 4x12 against my bandmates 100w tube amps through 4x12's seems way, way louder and cleaner. They run their master vols at say 6 and mine's at 3 and I'm cutting through. Fully cranked it's not even close. My shits like a jet engine while still maintaing it's tone. Mine's got really beefy upgraded transformers though. Does that have anything to do with perceived volume vs actual wattage?

 

[ecc83]

at least part of an amp that seems louder than another at the same power levels has to do with the power supply.
The attack of a guitar (transients) can require a greater than rated power for a few mili-seconds.
Say you have a 20 watt amp ...... a sharp transient could use up 50 watts or more for a very brief moment.
If an amp has a power supply that won't let it do that for even a moment, it will not sound as loud as an amp that has a very robust power supply that will allow it.
Those transients can have an effect on how loud we perceive an amp to be.

Sorry Bob, Don't agree with that.
The old Fenders had very little in the way of storage, electrolytic capacitors. The only one that matters is the one on the cathode of the valve rectifier and was typically no more than 32mfd. Modern amps have far more efficient silicon rectifiers and 220mfd is not uncommon. Yet those old Fenders were/are as loud as FRICK!

Dave.

 

[Lt. Bob]

Interesting. Does that have anything to do with the transformers? My 100 watt Marshall through a 4x12 against my bandmates 100w tube amps through 4x12's seems way, way louder and cleaner. They run their master vols at say 6 and mine's at 3 and I'm cutting through. Fully cranked it's not even close. My shits like a jet engine while still maintaing it's tone. Mine's got really beefy upgraded transformers though. Does that have anything to do with perceived volume vs actual wattage?

sure ...... you have a transformer in the power supply ...... and then there's the output tranny too.
Transformers are a big part of the sound of older amps and apparently even old desired channel strips and mixing boards which use smaller ones as part of their circuit.
That's why companies like Mercury Magnetics get good money for their designs.
ec83 might weigh in here but I think an amp with a wimpy power supply tanny will mush out some because the tranny's core gets saturated or something. I remember reading about it back when I was taking electronics but at that time (late 70's) everything was moving away from tubes and we didn't get into trannies very deeply.

 

[Lt. Bob]

Sorry Bob, Don't agree with that.
The old Fenders had very little in the way of storage, electrolytic capacitors. The only one that matters is the one on the cathode of the valve rectifier and was typically no more than 32mfd. Modern amps have far more efficient silicon rectifiers and 220mfd is not uncommon. Yet those old Fenders were/are as loud as FRICK!

Dave.

and I don't agree with that.
But I come more from a 7 gigs a week for 45 years viewpoint than from an electronic viewpoint and I've owned and gigged with maybe 150 different amps thru the years so I have a pretty good hands-on performing perspective.

Old Fenders are anemic compared to a lotta modern amps. A Deluxe doesn't do shit in a band louder than low to moderate volume levels while my Tiny Terror will kick it's ass easily.
You've already had one guy in this very thread mention that his 22watt deluxe isn't nearly as loud as the Maz18.
I currently have 14 amps and 8 of them are from the 60's and 70's. I don't really find Fenders from then to be very potent at all.
I do however have 3 1970's Ampegs that are just too loud to even use for anything.

But in general I find old Fenders to not put out nearly as well as modern amps.

 

[Greg_L]

sure ...... you have a transformer in the power supply ...... and then there's the output tranny too.
Transformers are a big part of the sound of older amps and apparently even old desired channel strips and mixing boards which use smaller ones as part of their circuit.
That's why companies like Mercury Magnetics get good money for their designs.
ec83 might weigh in here but I think an amp with a wimpy power supply tanny will mush out some because the tranny's core gets saturated or something. I remember reading about it back when I was taking electronics but at that time (late 70's) everything was moving away from tubes and we didn't get into trannies very deeply.

That's what's in mine - Mercury power and output transformers (according to the mod spec listing). They're big and heavy. It's cool cuz you can crank that amp and dial in lots of gain but it still retains it's clarity. I suspect that's from the upgraded transformers. Whatever it is, I like it.

 

[kcearl]

In britian we call them valves...



^^^ the extent of all my tube knowledge

 

[Greg_L]

In britian we call them valves...



^^^ the extent of all my tube knowledge

We know. You also call soccer football.

 

[TheBones]

I was reading something about kt88 tubes. Anybody have any experience with them? If I got a defender could I upgrade the tubes with these?

 

[ecc83]

and I don't agree with that.
But I come more from a 7 gigs a week for 45 years viewpoint than from an electronic viewpoint and I've owned and gigged with maybe 150 different amps thru the years so I have a pretty good hands-on performing perspective.

Old Fenders are anemic compared to a lotta modern amps. A Deluxe doesn't do shit in a band louder than low to moderate volume levels while my Tiny Terror will kick it's ass easily.
You've already had one guy in this very thread mention that his 22watt deluxe isn't nearly as loud as the Maz18.
I currently have 14 amps and 8 of them are from the 60's and 70's. I don't really find Fenders from then to be very potent at all.
I do however have 3 1970's Ampegs that are just too loud to even use for anything.

But in general I find old Fenders to not put out nearly as well as modern amps.

And you must speak as you find.

Subjective judgement of loudness is a very tricky thing and depends upon so many factors that it is hard to generalize.

Speakers play an enormous role here (people rarely compare two amps directly on the same set of speakers) and not just the absolute sensitivity in dBSPL/watt/mtr but in the voicing of the speaker, i.e. its frequency response. Then speakers suffer "thermal" (and to some extent magnetic) compression but different makes/marks will be more of less affected. You cannot always trust specifications. I replaced a Scorpion 100dB/W/Mtr 4 Ohm 12 in a stereo 130W sstate amp for a 16(!) Ohm 100dB/W/Mtr Celestion K100 and it was just as loud as the other channel when "specc" tells us that it should have absorbed only 1/4 the power and been 6dB less loud!

Then the gain staging and pot law of an amp "fools" people. My ***ing Banjo Box mll25 is as loud on 2 as my mates Zwingo 100 on 8!" That means diddly, just that the track taper in the BB is jiggered to deliver most of the gain earlier in its rotation leading the punter to think "WTF will it sound like if I turn it up to 9!?" Answer, probably no louder than mates ZW100! This bad (imho) "sudden" taper is quite common in older amps and I see a steady stream of forum questions about countering the problem as people find it difficult to set a sane volume for practice or recording say.

Lastly there is amplifier voicing itself. Guitar amps are not flat. Even with the tone controls centred the response is shaped, generally a shallow "scoop" to combat the accentuated midband sensitivity of pickups. But the exact curve can have a profound effect upon subjective loudness, a dB or so more or less at the ear's most sensitive region 2-3kHz makes quite a difference. Then of course, subjective loudness depends upon LOUDNESS! The Equal Loudness Contours, used to be the Fletcher-Munson curves.

I have the greatest respect for players such as yourself and the conclusions you have drawn over many years of experience. Those conclusion in themselves are certainly correct but maybe not always for the correct technical reasons?

KT88s? A fine valve (we have bog paper on "tubes"!) but expensive and be wary of modern qualities. "We" had quite a time with some less than reliable samples. Mind you, that last goes for almost all new valves!

Dave.

 

[ecc83]

I was reading something about kt88 tubes. Anybody have any experience with them? If I got a defender could I upgrade the tubes with these?

The KT88 has a fairly hefty heater current of 1.6A compared to just 0.9A for the 6L6 and 1.5 for EL34 so make sure the mains transformer is up to the extra load.
Then the 88 is a fat bustard, needs a lot more room than a 34 for instance!

Dave.

 

[TheBones]

Thanks Dave. Are there any other better candidates for replacement tubes for a little one power tube amP? I'm sure the ones that come stock with the defender are fairly close to garbage.

 

[ecc83]

Thanks Dave. Are there any other better candidates for replacement tubes for a little one power tube amP? I'm sure the ones that come stock with the defender are fairly close to garbage.

I do not know the amp but if you read my feeble contributions so far you will see that I am a bit of a technical BOF!
I do not really subscribe to the Soncally Superior Valve Scenario*. So long as the component has the correct voltages around it and is biased to the right current, they will all "sound" pretty much the same type for type.

For instance, people debate the relative merits of the EL34 and the 6L6 forgeting that the 34 has twice the "gain" of an L6 and so the PI will only have to work 1/2 as hard.

*This is NOT to say that there are no sonic differences between valves, even of the same type but different brands. If you setup a carefully controlled test to switch various triodes for instance in and out of circuit differences can be heard. (I set the kit up but vastly better ears than mine did the comparisons!) The differences are not massive but enough that a prefference can be made. I doubt however that anyone swopping valves, ad hoc in an amp and KNOWING the expensive one from the cheap ***t can make a valid judgement!

If you buy that amp, get a tech to check that the incumbent valve is working to specification, especially in terms of bias current (it will in any case be cathode biased being a single ender, still can be wrong tho!). If it is five by five, think long and hard before spending out further.

Dave.

 

[Lt. Bob]

I do not know the amp but if you read my feeble contributions so far you will see that I am a bit of a technical BOF!
I do not really subscribe to the Soncally Superior Valve Scenario*. So long as the component has the correct voltages around it and is biased to the right current, they will all "sound" pretty much the same type for type.

For instance, people debate the relative merits of the EL34 and the 6L6 forgeting that the 34 has twice the "gain" of an L6 and so the PI will only have to work 1/2 as hard.

*This is NOT to say that there are no sonic differences between valves, even of the same type but different brands. If you setup a carefully controlled test to switch various triodes for instance in and out of circuit differences can be heard. (I set the kit up but vastly better ears than mine did the comparisons!) The differences are not massive but enough that a prefference can be made. I doubt however that anyone swopping valves, ad hoc in an amp and KNOWING the expensive one from the cheap ***t can make a valid judgement!

If you buy that amp, get a tech to check that the incumbent valve is working to specification, especially in terms of bias current (it will in any case be cathode biased being a single ender, still can be wrong tho!). If it is five by five, think long and hard before spending out further.

Dave.

I way agree with all this.

About a year or two ago I had a friend that was seriously into tube-rolling and had a nice bunch of NOS tubes ..... expensive stuff ..... Sylvania black plates and .... and ..... I don't totally remember but it was all ol GE or Sylvania or RCA and he'd rave over this long plate tube or that grey plate ..... even had some russian military tubes.

Anyway .... he sent a bunch of them to me and with a lot of them there really wasn't any difference that you could notice.
There were a few that sounded different but NONE of it was the night and day differences that tube nuts claim them to have. Mostly subtle stuff.
There was one GE 12ax7 that made a noticable difference as V1 in a Blues Junior. It added some much needed 'sparkle' to the sound and it kinda transformed that amp although I still sold it ..... didn't care for the amp.
So I bought that one but sent everything else back. I thought the JJ's I usually use sounded just as good as any of the NOS stuff he sent me.

 

[ecc83]

Right Bob,
I posed a question in another forum..
"Under the Distance Trading Regulations" (UK) If valves do not come up to claims/expectations, can we send them back?"

I never got an answer of any kind from any valve supplier!

Dave.

 

[Greg_L]

I way agree with all this.

About a year or two ago I had a friend that was seriously into tube-rolling and had a nice bunch of NOS tubes ..... expensive stuff ..... Sylvania black plates and .... and ..... I don't totally remember but it was all ol GE or Sylvania or RCA and he'd rave over this long plate tube or that grey plate ..... even had some russian military tubes.

Anyway .... he sent a bunch of them to me and with a lot of them there really wasn't any difference that you could notice.
There were a few that sounded different but NONE of it was the night and day differences that tube nuts claim them to have. Mostly subtle stuff.
There was one GE 12ax7 that made a noticable difference as V1 in a Blues Junior. It added some much needed 'sparkle' to the sound and it kinda transformed that amp although I still sold it ..... didn't care for the amp.
So I bought that one but sent everything else back. I thought the JJ's I usually use sounded just as good as any of the NOS stuff he sent me.

I notice a difference between preamp tubes in my amp. I haven't spent too much time with it, and it's definitely not a huge difference like you said, but there is a difference. I tried 4 of them, no 5, so far. Tung-Sol, Electro-Harmonix, JJ, Raytheon, and the rebadged Groove Tube that came in it. The JJ was my least favorite. Too dark. The GT and EH were about the same but with he preamp gain cranked it has a little grit in the high mids that wasn't too pleasing. The Tung-Sol and Raytheon are the best. The Tung-Sol seems pretty aggressive and the Raytheon has that same aggression with some warmth. I like em both. This is all just in V1 though. I haven't tried swapping them around in V1 and V2. I'm not that anal about it. It's really just for my own curiosity more than chasing some dream tone. My amp doesn't have a back panel, so swapping a tube takes 5 seconds.

 

[ecc83]

I notice a difference between preamp tubes in my amp. I haven't spent too much time with it, and it's definitely not a huge difference like you said, but there is a difference. I tried 4 of them, no 5, so far. Tung-Sol, Electro-Harmonix, JJ, Raytheon, and the rebadged Groove Tube that came in it. The JJ was my least favorite. Too dark. The GT and EH were about the same but with he preamp gain cranked it has a little grit in the high mids that wasn't too pleasing. The Tung-Sol and Raytheon are the best. The Tung-Sol seems pretty aggressive and the Raytheon has that same aggression with some warmth. I like em both. This is all just in V1 though. I haven't tried swapping them around in V1 and V2. I'm not that anal about it. It's really just for my own curiosity more than chasing some dream tone. My amp doesn't have a back panel,
"so swapping a tube takes 5 seconds".

And about 30 seconds to a minute to truly stabilize! In the rig I mentioned the valves were kept hot all the time.

Don't get me wrong. I am not agin' peeps having fun on a wet Saturday afternoon with their kit on! What I want to avoid is people being ripped off after reading "night and days" claims for a certain pre or output valves. Do note that such claims, be them from valve suppliers or "rollers" on forums NEVER post before and after voltage or gain tables neither do we get any .wav comparisions.

If you want a couple of suggestions? The Sovetek 7025 (ecc83) high grade is a good valve and latterly the JJ ECC83 S seems ok. For power valves I will only mention EL34s. TADs always seemed reliable and JJ again are going well.

Remember, if you are a gigger, reliability is all. Like a combat pistol, never give up a yard of reliability for a tenth of an inch of accuracy! The least professional thing you can do at a gig is not go on!

Dave.

 

[Greg_L]

And about 30 seconds to a minute to truly stabilize! In the rig I mentioned the valves were kept hot all the time.

Don't get me wrong. I am not agin' peeps having fun on a wet Saturday afternoon with their kit on! What I want to avoid is people being ripped off after reading "night and days" claims for a certain pre or output valves. Do note that such claims, be them from valve suppliers or "rollers" on forums NEVER post before and after voltage or gain tables neither do we get any .wav comparisions.

If you want a couple of suggestions? The Sovetek 7025 (ecc83) high grade is a good valve and latterly the JJ ECC83 S seems ok. For power valves I will only mention EL34s. TADs always seemed reliable and JJ again are going well.

Remember, if you are a gigger, reliability is all. Like a combat pistol, never give up a yard of reliability for a tenth of an inch of accuracy! The least professional thing you can do at a gig is not go on!

Dave.

Yeah I'm not messing with it anymore. It's not that important to me. With all the variables that can alter a guitar tone, the brand of tube is probably about ten million items down the list.

 

[Lt. Bob]

Remember, if you are a gigger, reliability is all. Like a combat pistol, never give up a yard of reliability for a tenth of an inch of accuracy! The least professional thing you can do at a gig is not go on!

yep ..... that's absolutely paramount to me.
A couple of amps I have and really like have stranded me on a gig ...... basically once that happens I don't gig with it again.

I made one exception .......... I don't use loud amps here in Florida that much but back in B.R. I had a Hot Rod deVille (4x10) I liked a LOT.
Those amps have a problem with the ribbon cables that connect the pre and power sections fracturing the solder joints because they're too stiff and vibrate that joint until it fractures from moving it around and playing too, I imagine.
But because it was solder joints I just figured if I got it soldered right it'd be ok.
But after the third time I had to fix it (and it's a PIA too!) it joined the pile of studio amps.

I need my amps to work every single time without a single failure ever!
That's why I've mostly moved to using one of my Mesas ..... rock solid ..... they will work every time.
Or my 40 year old Ampegs but they're way too loud and weigh too damned much.
I love their sound though.

As for tubes ..... yeah they can make a difference ...... especially in a studio setting like teh gerg's where you obsess over tiny tonal changes.
But for live work I don't find it to be worth the stupid money they charge and it's a difference I feel like I can simply correct for in the tone settings.

 

[TheBones]

So basically, not night and day with different tubes.... That doesn't go across the board does it? I mean a 5 watt defenders head cant come with a very high average of quality parts in general, so the tubes have to be on the low end of things. It wouldn't make a big difference to put better quality parts? Or tubes just aren't number one on the list is what you're saying

 

[Lt. Bob]

So basically, not night and day with different tubes.... That doesn't go across the board does it? I mean a 5 watt defenders head cant come with a very high average of quality parts in general, so the tubes have to be on the low end of things. It wouldn't make a big difference to put better quality parts? Or tubes just aren't number one on the list is what you're saying

it'll make a difference possibly but it's not gonna transform the amp.

Now .... in that Defender it might be worth trying a few preamp tubes because it has no tone control.
So you might possibly tweak the tone one way or another to your liking ( or not) but I'd be surprised if changing the power tube would make a huge difference.
That's my opinion based on a lotta years doing this.

But to be clear , there ARE others who would disagree.