my ongoing quest for a straightforward, no nonsense daw

[Steenamaroo]

Put it this way: what are my chances of finding a musical instrument I can play to a high standard with no training or practice?

It's true. I think the value of a trade is being lost in modern society, from the home DIY manuals of the 70s+80s to the spotty 16 year old 'producers' of current days.

In the same way that much of my work is fixing things that amateurs did wrong, I guess a plumber makes a lot of his living on emergency callouts when some numnuts goes at his kitchen taps with a hammer or whatever.

If I want a shelf put up, I'll put it up.
If I want a wall plastered I'll phone someone.

Everyone draws their own limits, but for most people audio production doesn't seem to fall into the 'skilled profession' bracket anymore.

In my opinion, you are exemplifying why it should.

 

[RAMI]

..only to you, dude. and your credibility went out the window with that car manufaturer analogy. you probably should have taken the time to think that one through before presenting it.

No, that analogy was fine. You're just in denial. Your credibility went out the window when you made it obvious that you're a lazy-ass who just wants to get everything handed to him without doing any work or putting in any effort.

Here's a supposedly grown man whining that he actually has to put a little work into something. Truth hurts. Deal with it, lazy-ass. These are the kind of things 15 year olds complain about.

 

[Steenamaroo]

These are the kind of things 15 year olds don't even complain about.

Fixed that for you.

 

[RAMI]

I'm sorry--I tried to be helpful but I cannot let this stand.

You're a singer songwriter. How long did you spend learning to play the instruments you use? How much study of music notation and theory did you do for your song writing?

Why should you assume that the process of recording and mixing music should take any less effort? If you're not interested in learning how to do it properly, you can pay a professional to do it for you. Or stick with something like Garageband and put up with it's limitations. Just as a grand piano takes more practice to play than squeaking out "Mary Had a Little Lamb" on a plastic recorder in the school ensemble, so mixing is a skill that must be learned if you wish to do it well. The assumption that there should be a simple way to do elaborate mixing is a flawed idea and, dare I say it, an insult to those who HAVE learned the skills.

None of this nullifies my point that the User Interface can make a big difference and maybe there will be something out there that suits you better. However, even if you find something you like, don't assume that you'll be able to use it properly without some effort on the learning curve. Put it this way: what are my chances of finding a musical instrument I can play to a high standard with no training or practice?

It's true. I think the value of a trade is being lost in modern society, from the home DIY manuals of the 70s+80s to the spotty 16 year old 'producers' of current days.

In the same way that much of my work is fixing things that amateurs did wrong, I guess a plumber makes a lot of his living on emergency callouts when some numnuts goes at his kitchen taps with a hammer or whatever.

If I want a shelf put up, I'll put it up.
If I want a wall plastered I'll phone someone.

Everyone draws their own limits, but for most people audio production doesn't seem to fall into the 'skilled profession' bracket anymore.

In my opinion, you are exemplifying why it should.

I think it's time to cut the ambilical cord with this toddler.

We all tried to help. He's going to tell you that your analogies don't apply, because he's a lazy-ass whiner. He's been whining since Post #1.

 

[david henman]

I think it's time to cut the ambilical cord with this toddler.
We all tried to help. He's going to tell you that your analogies don't apply, because he's a lazy-ass whiner. He's been whining since Post #1.

...anyone know how i can block this arrogant ass?

 

[david henman]

...as i mentioned, i have spent fifty years mastering home recording.

given that is almost en entire adult lifespan, why am i being attacked here for, evidently,m being unwilling to take the time to master home recording?

It's true. I think the value of a trade is being lost in modern society, from the home DIY manuals of the 70s+80s to the spotty 16 year old 'producers' of current days.

In the same way that much of my work is fixing things that amateurs did wrong, I guess a plumber makes a lot of his living on emergency callouts when some numnuts goes at his kitchen taps with a hammer or whatever.

If I want a shelf put up, I'll put it up.
If I want a wall plastered I'll phone someone.

Everyone draws their own limits, but for most people audio production doesn't seem to fall into the 'skilled profession' bracket anymore.

In my opinion, you are exemplifying why it should.

 

[david henman]

On the other hand, you're just giving wav files to someone else to work on, so why not just get a digital multi tracker and be done with it?

...i answered that question in an earlier post. computer software offers distinct advantages, for example editing and arranging, and archiving.

 

[david henman]

...as i just stated in a response to another post, i have spent fifty years mastering home recording.
i also explained this quite clearly in my original post.
this is getting to the point where i'm just answering the same question over and over.

I'm sorry--I tried to be helpful but I cannot let this stand.

You're a singer songwriter. How long did you spend learning to play the instruments you use? How much study of music notation and theory did you do for your song writing?

Why should you assume that the process of recording and mixing music should take any less effort? If you're not interested in learning how to do it properly, you can pay a professional to do it for you. Or stick with something like Garageband and put up with it's limitations. Just as a grand piano takes more practice to play than squeaking out "Mary Had a Little Lamb" on a plastic recorder in the school ensemble, so mixing is a skill that must be learned if you wish to do it well. The assumption that there should be a simple way to do elaborate mixing is a flawed idea and, dare I say it, an insult to those who HAVE learned the skills.

None of this nullifies my point that the User Interface can make a big difference and maybe there will be something out there that suits you better. However, even if you find something you like, don't assume that you'll be able to use it properly without some effort on the learning curve. Put it this way: what are my chances of finding a musical instrument I can play to a high standard with no training or practice?

 

[rayc]

You're a bit old for the "I want it & I want it now" bit aren't you.
Get Audacity or use the wav recorder built in with your PC soundcard.
they're dead simple to use. Just what you need. Mind you, you'll have to learn how to use them.
I recorded to tape for 20 years. It took a lot of that tie to get it together - every new session was an improvement in soinics and work flow - assisted by gear acquisition.
YOU find it a mystery.
YOU are out of your comfort zone.
YOU missed your cornflakes at brekkie.
I found Reaper quite intuitive to use for recording & mixing.
HOW?
Software manufacturers packed in as many aspects of tape recording as they could - most DAWS still use a tape style transport iconsfor play, rewind etc. & use mixer screens to help us along.
WHY?
Software maufacturers have tried to include as much innovation as they can within the buyer's budget.
Most software manufacturers sell manuals, have help pops ups & search facilitie as well as user forums.
NO ONE expects you to turn it on and be 100% up to speed EXCEPT YOU!
Have you considered a stand alone recorder like the Zoom R16, the Roland Diclab etc; they operate much more like a mixer & tape machine - and are as limited as those in some respects.
how did software manufacturers manage to take something i had spent fifty years mastering and turn it into a complete mystery?
There! YOU said it. It took you years to master one way of doing something. Now you need to spend a little time, (seriously it doesn't take long - 1 song was enough to get me up to speed in Reaper), mastering another way. Either embrace the change or go back to tape (mind you I quite liked recoring to tape).
People responding simply can't get over the fact that you're complaining about something that most others have taken on - many after similarly long periods in other formats & equipment - and worked their way through.
Did you get this upset when Apple brought out the 2E or when the Mac changed that work flow entirely or when the iMac required everyone to reconsider how to transport stuff without a floppy? Or the horror when, god forbid, the word processor replaced the quite straight forward typewriter?
Read back on what you've written & the responses. Have a laugh at us AND yourself and get on with it.
Perhaps if you roll back a little and reconsider your questions. Designate them as rhetorical and, with a hearty hurrumph to mobile phones and microwave ovens, get on with whatever it is that you want to do.

 

[david henman]

The assumption that there should be a simple way to do elaborate mixing is a flawed idea and, dare I say it, an insult to those who HAVE learned the skills.

...i am going to have to start questiong the reading comprehension of some of you folks.

i have tried my best, beginning with the original post, to make it crystal clear that i have no interest in "elaborate mixing". i have made abolsolutely zero assumptions about "eleborate mixing". i have been involved in home recording and professonal recording for fifty years. i am well aware that "eleborate mixing" is complicated, and that professional recording engineers spend their lives mastering the craft of "elaborate mixing".

i have no desire, as i have mentioned more than a few times, to be a professional recording engineer.

the only mixing i do, as i have re-iterated a few times here, is adjusting levels for playback.

that's it!

the kind of home recording i have been doing, as a singer/songwriter/guitarist is not, and should not, be rocket science, or the equivalent of "eleborate mixing".

and, thankfully, at least the manufacturers are beginning to recognize that, even if many of you here cannot.

 

[david henman]

You're a bit old for the "I want it & I want it now" bit aren't you.

...i expected a bit of a learning curve, from the get go, and was quite willing to navigate.

this conversation is taking place two years after the fact.

two entire years after i began to realize that this was no mere "learning curve", but a situation where software manufacturers took something i had spent fifty years mastering, and turned it into a complete mystery.

the hundreds of forums dedicated to the subject, and the thousands of users running into a seemingly never-ending stream of dilemmas, is a testament to that mystery.

an even bigger mjystery to me is why no one seems to understand the fact that there is quite a broad distinction between the people who desire to be on the same level as professional recording engineers, and people like me who simply want to demo their songs.


Get Audacity or use the wav recorder built in with your PC soundcard.
they're dead simple to use. Just what you need. Mind you, you'll have to learn how to use them.
I recorded to tape for 20 years. It took a lot of that tie to get it together - every new session was an improvement in soinics and work flow - assisted by gear acquisition.
YOU find it a mystery.
YOU are out of your comfort zone.

YOU missed your cornflakes at brekkie.

....what the fuck, dude? seriously, what the fuck?

I found Reaper quite intuitive to use for recording & mixing.
HOW?
Software manufacturers packed in as many aspects of tape recording as they could - most DAWS still use a tape style transport iconsfor play, rewind etc. & use mixer screens to help us along.
WHY?
Software maufacturers have tried to include as much innovation as they can within the buyer's budget.
Most software manufacturers sell manuals, have help pops ups & search facilitie as well as user forums.
NO ONE expects you to turn it on and be 100% up to speed EXCEPT YOU!

...oh, please! give your head a shake. i've already devoted two years of my after work and weekend life to this.

Have you considered a stand alone recorder like the Zoom R16, the Roland Diclab etc; they operate much more like a mixer & tape machine - and are as limited as those in some respects.

...did you not read any of my posts?

how did software manufacturers manage to take something i had spent fifty years mastering and turn it into a complete mystery?
There! YOU said it. It took you years to master one way of doing something. Now you need to spend a little time, (seriously it doesn't take long - 1 song was enough to get me up to speed in Reaper), mastering another way. Either embrace the change or go back to tape (mind you I quite liked recoring to tape).
People responding simply can't get over the fact that you're complaining about something that most others have taken on - many after similarly long periods in other formats & equipment - and worked their way through.
Did you get this upset when Apple brought out the 2E or when the Mac changed that work flow entirely or when the iMac required everyone to reconsider how to transport stuff without a floppy? Or the horror when, god forbid, the word processor replaced the quite straight forward typewriter?
Read back on what you've written & the responses. Have a laugh at us AND yourself and get on with it.

...i have read every word written here. obviously, you haven't.

Perhaps if you roll back a little and reconsider your questions. Designate them as rhetorical and, with a hearty hurrumph to mobile phones and microwave ovens, get on with whatever it is that you want to do.


...dude, that is just ridiculous.

 

[david henman]

...is that how it works on this forum: you bring your problems to the table and people start lining up to insult you?

fuck, it's harmony central all over again.

 

[Bobbsy]

...as i just stated in a response to another post, i have spent fifty years mastering home recording.
i also explained this quite clearly in my original post.
this is getting to the point where i'm just answering the same question over and over.

As have I. I started with my father's Silvertone reel to reel tape recorder when I was ten.

Even so, the move to digital with hardware based systems and then computers (which I started in 1996 with Cool Edit 96) wasn't instant. Indeed, I'm still learning to this day.

You have two choices: accept the restrictions of a system you find "simple enough" but restricting or take the time to learn the brave new world properly. What you want doesn't exist and, by definition, cannot. More options mean more complexity.

Why ask for advice if you're convinced you know everything? Some people can't be helped. I'm done here.

 

[david henman]

As have I. I started with my father's Silvertone reel to reel tape recorder when I was ten.
Even so, the move to digital with hardware based systems and then computers (which I started in 1996 with Cool Edit 96) wasn't instant. Indeed, I'm still learning to this day.
You have two choices: accept the restrictions of a system you find "simple enough" but restricting or take the time to learn the brave new world properly. What you want doesn't exist and, by definition, cannot. More options mean more complexity.
Why ask for advice if you're convinced you know everything? Some people can't be helped. I'm done here.

...yes, you are.

 

[mjbphotos]

I'll say it one last time: TRY REAPER REAPER | Audio Production Without Limits Make sure you download the manual, that way it's instantly accessible from within Reaper, you can search for whatever information you need easily. If you have as much experience as you claim recording with analog and Audacity, then moving up to Reaper should be a piece of cake for you. The only thing you will really need to read in the manual to get started is about getting set up (Options > Preferences).

 

[RAMI]

...is that how it works on this forum: you bring your problems to the table and people start lining up to insult you?

fuck, it's harmony central all over again.

Nice try, you hypocrite. People have been trying to help you for 6 pages. You're the one that won't take one piece of advice and continue to go into "martyr" mode. Boo hoo.



It's finally happened. The entire internet has turned into one big squishy vagina with an over-sensitive bladder.

 

[david henman]

I'll say it one last time: TRY REAPER REAPER | Audio Production Without Limits Make sure you download the manual, that way it's instantly accessible from within Reaper, you can search for whatever information you need easily. If you have as much experience as you claim recording with analog and Audacity, then moving up to Reaper should be a piece of cake for you. The only thing you will really need to read in the manual to get started is about getting set up (Options > Preferences).

...i don't recall ever claiming that i had any experience with audacity.

i do recall stating that i had tried reaper, but that it was very, very early on.

i also stated that i felt that i should give reaper another try.

which i plan to do, along with the new software from presonus (studio one) and propellerhead (record), both evidently designed for guys like me who have no desire to master professional recording/mixing/mastering, but simply want to demo songs.

 

[ollie99]

my advice - pick a DAW, any DAW (I suggest ones that have been suggested in this thread) and just really get to know it, it'll start off slow but after a while you will get to know it and you'll understand it a lot better. I started off with ableton live lite 7, and I didn't even know how to record anything. But quickly, after just reading the lesson thing that comes up on the side, I found out, and then one thing after another it came to me. After a few days I made my first song, it completely sucked because it was all out of time and the quality was so bad, but I just did more and more and after a few months I had quite a few songs, not of great quality but the accuracy was better. then became a point where I decided to really try and find out how to get better quality, and with a few questions on here, I bought a better interface, started micing my drums and guitar amps and learnt how to mix and use EQ and compressors and all that, and in my signature is where I am now. My next step will come when my tascam us1800 arrives and I will be able to mix each drum mic individually, and then sometime in the next year I might make some bass traps and all that stuff.

 

[david henman]

...is that how it works on this forum: you bring your problems to the table and people start lining up to insult you?
fuck, it's harmony central all over again.

...thankfully, most of you have been sincere in trying to help, and your comments and advice have been helpful. i do appreciate it, and i am very grateful.

i have spent an inordinate amount of time, money and sanity for the past two years trying to learn how to understand and use computer recording software, and i will continue to do that.

and i will continue to ask questions, and seek the advice of my peers.

 

[david henman]

my advice - pick a DAW, any DAW (I suggest ones that have been suggested in this thread) and just really get to know it, it'll start off slow but after a while you will get to know it and you'll understand it a lot better. I started off with ableton live lite 7, and I didn't even know how to record anything. But quickly, after just reading the lesson thing that comes up on the side, I found out, and then one thing after another it came to me. After a few days I made my first song, it completely sucked because it was all out of time and the quality was so bad, but I just did more and more and after a few months I had quite a few songs, not of great quality but the accuracy was better. then became a point where I decided to really try and find out how to get better quality, and with a few questions on here, I bought a better interface, started micing my drums and guitar amps and learnt how to mix and use EQ and compressors and all that, and in my signature is where I am now. My next step will come when my tascam us1800 arrives and I will be able to mix each drum mic individually, and then sometime in the next year I might make some bass traps and all that stuff.

...if you go back and read through this thread, you will realize that is what i have been doing.