Best Gauge Wire for Amp to Mixer Cable

[Lt. Bob]

On the other end of things, I have made Faraday cages out of aluminum foil in the past, so my thinking is that a cable shield is nothing more than a very long Faraday cage.

yep ...... that's really all it is (as ecc83 points out ... in audio freqs ) and yes you definitely could do what you described.
I'm just thinking that this recording is a project that you can't really do over and you want it to go right.
And I hadn't thought of the inductance issue but ecc83 is right. Cables have significant inductance and capacitance which is affected by cable design and will impact the peromance of the gear they're connected to.
In audiophile stuff, for instance, you can select different cables to tweak the freq response of an amplifier for instance ..... tame a too harsh high end maybe.
Trying to make your own shielded cable is a project in it's own right and simply using cable that you know will work eliminates one set of potential issues and you're gonna have enough to do to get it right without adding complexity to the proceedings.

 

[ecc83]

Lt Bob.
Any amplifier that could have its frequency response influenced by any sensible length of cable is a long, long way from being "audiophile" or indeed, Audiophool!

And BTW, Russ Andrews is a money mad scoundrel and his followers ***ts!

Dave.

 

[Lt. Bob]

Lt Bob.
Any amplifier that could have its frequency response influenced by any sensible length of cable is a long, long way from being "audiophile" or indeed, Audiophool!

And BTW, Russ Andrews is a money mad scoundrel and his followers ***ts!

Dave.

not true ...... I've read quite a few white papers on it and guitar amps are affected by the caapcitance in input cables ..... pre-amps can be affected by patch cables ...... actually, now that I think about it we're really talking input cables since you don't have the shielding on speaker cables.
But that's what the OP is talking about ...... put a big wad of inductance or capcitance on the front end of something and it will affect the freq response.
On the input side of things they can definitely be affected to an audible degree. I've also heard these effects myself when auditioning cables.
That's why different guitar cables sound (sometimes dramatically) different with the same guitar and amp.
You, of course, are free to not believe it.
But if you can't hear the difference between guitar cables then it's only because you can't hear it.

A lot sound much the same but sometimes good cables can sound quite a bit different and that's primarily a result of the cable's capacitance and/or inductance

 

[Bobbsy]

Guitar amps with their high impedance unbalanced inputs are a slightly different story though. Standard line level low impedance stuff isn't subject to this sort of thing (at least not to a measurable/audible degree).

Just for a bit of perspective, the theatre where I do my occasional earn the beer money shifts probably has between 200 and 300 metres of cabling between the mix position and the amp room and a good 100 metre of speaker level cable from there to the FOH arrays. It's properly specced good quality cable and no issues at all. Such runs are the norm in any big touring rock show as well.

Of course, none of this changes the advice to simply buy proper cable for the OP. There's a lot more to designing good audio cable than just some copper and a foil screen. All sorts of other things come into it!

 

[ecc83]

not true ...... I've read quite a few white papers on it and guitar amps are affected by the caapcitance in input cables ..... pre-amps can be affected by patch cables ...... actually, now that I think about it we're really talking input cables since you don't have the shielding on speaker cables.
But on the input side of things they can definitely be affect to an audible degree. I've also heard these effects myself when auditioning cables.
You, of course, are free to not believe it.

Guitar AMPS are not affected by guitar cables. GUITARS or rather the complex source Z that is a pickup/volume/tone assembly is affected but this effect is simply due to the different capacitances of different cables and of course the longer they are the greater the effect.

Any pre amplifier that has its output response altered by connection of any sensible (less than 25mtrs say?) length of cable is a rubbish pre amp. It is laughably easy these days to have an output resistance of just 50 ohms and with a cheap and neat circuit trick output Rs of less than an Ohm are easily done.

Are you seriously suggesting that the guys that rigged the sound for the Olympics handwrung over each and every mtr of the clicks and clicks of cable they must have used? PRO gear is PROPERLY designed. MUCH that passes for "high fidelity"... Isn't!

Dave.

 

[Lt. Bob]

Guitar AMPS are not affected by guitar cables. GUITARS or rather the complex source Z that is a pickup/volume/tone assembly is affected but this effect is simply due to the different capacitances of different cables and of course the longer they are the greater the effect.

Any pre amplifier that has its output response altered by connection of any sensible (less than 25mtrs say?) length of cable is a rubbish pre amp. It is laughably easy these days to have an output resistance of just 50 ohms and with a cheap and neat circuit trick output Rs of less than an Ohm are easily done.

Are you seriously suggesting that the guys that rigged the sound for the Olympics handwrung over each and every mtr of the clicks and clicks of cable they must have used? PRO gear is PROPERLY designed. MUCH that passes for "high fidelity"... Isn't!

Dave.

and many people who don't believe there is a difference can't hear.
I will always go by my ears and I do have a background (and diploma) in electronics.
But I've long tired of useless arguments so i won't participate but I hear what I hear and my ears are top notch with quite a few players and studio guys deffering to what i hear.
This is how I make my living and has been for 45+ years. That's a pretty long time and a LOT of experience ..... I'm not just some newb spouting off and I trust my ears.
Once again ..... you are free to believe what you wish.
But I know what i hear and I also understand the science behind it so we're just gonna have to disagree.
No biggie ...... not trying to convince anyone and don't care that you don't agree ..... life is good.

 

[ecc83]

Well I am sorry but you clearly do not understand the science behind these matters or if you did you are not inquisitive enough to find out why YOU hear something that most others do not and that measurement and science say should not be there.

Dave.

 

[miroslav]

 

[amanisdude]

Wow. I somehow missed the first post about using UTP networking cables to send A/V signals. Thanks, Dave and Bobbsy, for bringing this back up!

Suffice it to say, I do have a bunch of ethernet cables just lying around (as well as some RJ45 couplers), so using networking cables just might work. I did find a couple of baluns on ebay (here) for relatively cheap cost, but I don't want to buy them if they won't be up to par. Maybe you guys could tell me if you think they'd suck or not.

Now that's not to say that this would be fool-proof. From what I understand, installations usually utilize solid-core cables (which have much longer signal transfer lengths) whereas I only have stranded cables. Do you think that would make much of a difference over my 100- to 150-foot range? Also, my cables are CAT6 (I somehow doubt this would make a difference, but still).

Furthermore, how would I send an already balanced line level signal from one of the pro-grade mixers at the reception hall through such a setup? (I take it I shouldn't use a balun for obvious reasons, but can I send an already balanced signal through one of these babies?)


ALSO, this might be another dumbo question, but if I were to get a BNC-to-RCA adapter for the device I linked to above and hook it up to an audio signal, do you think that would be effective? Or are these baluns specifically tuned for a particular usage? Thanks guys! You all make life awesome!


‒amanisdude
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[Lt. Bob]

Well I am sorry but you clearly do not understand the science behind these matters or if you did you are not inquisitive enough to find out why YOU hear something that most others do not and that measurement and science say should not be there.

Dave.

yes i do understand the science involved ..... and plenty of others hear the difference.

I am sorry but you clearly have a closed mind and don't believe I have the experience I have.
That's your choice.

 

[amanisdude]

Haha, agreed. Chill, guys.

From my understanding, science and experience are often at odds, since it is so hard to take all factors into account when performing calculations and applying established theories. At the same time, if there is an odd experience, science should be able to say something about it if it's reached that level of understanding.

So... what's that old adage? There, there. You're both right.


‒amanisdude
__________________


amanisdude's Rep Power has just dropped to -100000

 

[ecc83]

Haha, agreed. Chill, guys.

From my understanding, science and experience are often at odds, since it is so hard to take all factors into account when performing calculations and applying established theories. At the same time, if there is an odd experience, science should be able to say something about it if it's reached that level of understanding.

So... what's that old adage? There, there. You're both right.


‒amanisdude
__________________


amanisdude's Rep Power has just dropped to -100000

Nope. Can't both be right. Either electronic devices follow the laws of electricity or they do not. If effects cannot be demonstrated and peer reviewed they "do not exist".

Some folks believe in ghosts, faries and a diety. I do not. I do not ridicule such people or attempt to dissuade them in any way from those beliefs but I do ask that they do not promolgate them amongst vulnerable persons and those that are seeking solid advice and do not need such "water muddying".

To be slightly rude; Put up or shutup.

Dave.

 

[amanisdude]

Aaaanyway, to re-focus the thread, I'm close to ordering this balun, but I have just a couple more questions before I do so.

From what I understand, installations usually utilize solid-core cables (which have much longer signal transfer lengths) whereas I only have stranded cables. Do you think that would make much of a difference over my 100- to 150-foot range? Also, my cables are CAT6 (I somehow doubt this would make a difference, but still).

Being that the construction (shielding, performance, etc.) of patch cables is fundamentally different from backbone cables, I assume I may have to also order some solid-core cables with these baluns for my 100 ft. run. Is this so?

Also, you can ignore the CAT6 question. It sounds dumber the more I think about it. Theoretically, the CAT6 cables should work better than their CAT5 counterparts.

Furthermore, how would I send an already balanced line level signal from one of the pro-grade mixers at the reception hall through such a setup? (I take it I shouldn't use a balun for obvious reasons, but can I send an already balanced signal through one of these babies?)

This one, I'm a bit more confused about. I'm no balun junkie, but I know passing an unbalanced signal through a balun would balance it. But sending an already balanced signal through a balun?? My thinking is that it would unbalance the signal (owing to the word 'balun' itself from 'balance/unbalance'), prevent the signal from perpetuating, or have no effect at all, the last if the balun construction for 'unbalancing' the signal is different than 'balancing' it.

ALSO, this might be another dumbo question, but if I were to get a BNC-to-RCA adapter for the device I linked to above and hook it up to an audio signal, do you think that would be effective? Or are these baluns specifically tuned for a particular usage?[/B]

This one's the most important. It requires a more fundamental knowledge of how baluns work. I would think that the construction for each (video and audio) would be roughly the same, but the signals do involve different frequencies and, thus, might involve a slightly different balun build. Is this true? My reasoning is that I do need to send multiple audio feeds through the cable (one from each mixer), and using the same balun would definitely save me some dough.

Also, if it makes no difference what type of A/V signal you send through the BNC connector, I could save some bucks and get something like this with a BNC-to-RCA adapter and a RCA-to-1/4" adapter.

On a similar note, if the previously linked baluns do work with audio, can these work with any twisted pair cables (like the Belden I posted about earlier)? I know that this one in particular sounds like a stupid question, I just want to make sure I have all the details before I place any bad orders.

Thanks all!


‒amanisdude
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[ecc83]

Was video in the original post? If so I missed it !

Anyhoo, if you need video you could run it down CAT5/5e or CAT6, the latter might give slightly better results (Bobbsy?) but a run of "low loss" TV downlead might be lower overall cost.

For low power audio purposes CAT 6 offers no benefits, the wire is 22 awg as against 24awg giving enhanced data performance but it will do diddley at 20-20kHz.

Balance: You have a balanced drive? Then all you need is a transformer at the end of the line to un-bal. These are a good, cost effective products..http://www.canford.co.uk/ProductResources/ig/2739.pdf

The Z3003E is the one you need. Alternatively you could use the Art Cleanbox 2. I dare bet your very own Jensen Transformers also do a box but it is likely to be expensive, top quality tho'but.

Dave.

 

[amanisdude]

Thanks Dave.

Heh, actually, I didn't mean to imply that I would be using it for video (though my mind is now full of extra possibilities, which means I might try it).

What I meant to ask is would it be possible to use the video BNC component of the balun I linked to for audio via a BNC-to-RCA adapter (which would later get further adapted using a RCA-to-1/4" adapter)?

 

[amanisdude]

As for unbalancing, couldn't I just use one balun at the terminal end for unbalancing? The Z3003E, while amazing from the looks of it, would require some extra wiring and setup knowledge.

And if I were to do video, could I just terminate a standard low-loss RG6 cable with an RCA video plug? Would that work? Thanks.


‒amanisdude
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[Bobbsy]

Video baluns are different from audio ones and serve a somewhat different purpose so you couldn't feed audio over the video inputs. In any case, video is unbalanced.

You'd need a transformer at both ends because, although CAT5/6 is great for balanced audio, it's very dicey for unbalanced, especially over long runs. However, I still think you can probably get a balanced feed from one of those mixers, in which case you'd only need to unbalance things at the end by your mixer.

Yes, low loss RG6 works fine for composite video. Just make sure it IS composite you'll be dealing with, not VGA or a digital format.

 

[amanisdude]

Thanks Bobbsy!

That pretty much answers all my major questions for now.

I'll check back in with you guys later when the rigging is set up. Thanks everyone!


‒amanisdude
__________________

 

[amanisdude]

Sorry. I have to break my prior statement for a bit.

I just saw these guys on ebay. They're for keystone setups, but they seem to serve the same function.

Would getting a couple of these and sending multiple audio signals over one networking cable yield acceptable results? I don't know how crosstalk affects analog signals, but I assume sharing one networking cable for multiple balanced audio signals is no problem. Thanks.


‒amanisdude
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[amanisdude]

Also, how about this copper-coated steel crap?

It says "Low Loss 18 gauge" in the description, but the "copper covered steel" part makes me nervous.


‒amanisdude
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EDIT:
NM. I found a better one. ...Well, at least I think I did. Most RG6 cables marketed as 'low loss' are ridiculously expensive (at least for me). Would using a standard 100-foot RG6 cable like this one or this one have a large effect on the video quality? I should note that we're not going to be broadcasting in HD, and the video may be recorded at the source anyway. Thanks!