Knots In White Cotton

[robgreen]

Finally a new original to share with youse all. It's maybe a bit of an odd one, but hopefully it at least partially works.

Had to fight with levels a bit, but didn't want to mash the dynamics with too much in the way of limiting etc. Let me know if they're off.

As usual, all comments on recording, mix and song all very much appreciated, and I'll address any issues that come up

Choice of 320kbps mp3 link or soundcloud:

Knots In White Cotton 320kbps

Knots In White Cotton - Soundcloud

Thanks

NEW UPDATED MIX:

 

[Armistice]

Hey liking those repeating/delay percussiony things at the start and in the middle.... Might bring the voice up a little against that melodic whatever it is that you've got playing through verse. Overall sound seems well balanced on the small headphones I'm listening on.

Can I assume this is a word play on "Nights in White Satin"?

I'd have to say that heavily effected acoustic guitar from about 2.45 doesn't really grab me, but that's just a personal opinion - apart from the sound, I was sort of looking for it to do more in the space, perhaps. It fits OK in the song I think though...

One of those songs you can just start singing/humming along to without knowing you're doing it - not sure how to describe it, but it's a good thing...

Good stuff, as per usual.

Cheers

 

[fat_fleet]

Hey Rob- this is cool. Very English sounding, like the stuff of yours I've heard tends to be... I like the melodica-sounding-thingy. Pretty cool.

It's tough for me to understand all the words, but level-wise they sit well with the music so I don't know if I'd touch em. Maybe a little high-end eq or just leave em like they are. I never understand when people feel like every word needs to be perfectly audible. It puts too much weight on the lyrics and I also like a little ambiguity. I often end up disappointed when I read the lyrics to a song I like, when the real lyrics are not as cool as what I thought they were- not that I think that would be the case with your music. It shows that you put effort into them.

Anyways, there's a little bit of looseness in the 2.30-2.50 area...it might be the bass... but it doesn't distract me too much. Overall great tune.

 

[robgreen]

Hey liking those repeating/delay percussiony things at the start and in the middle.... Might bring the voice up a little against that melodic whatever it is that you've got playing through verse. Overall sound seems well balanced on the small headphones I'm listening on.

Can I assume this is a word play on "Nights in White Satin"?

I'd have to say that heavily effected acoustic guitar from about 2.45 doesn't really grab me, but that's just a personal opinion - apart from the sound, I was sort of looking for it to do more in the space, perhaps. It fits OK in the song I think though...

One of those songs you can just start singing/humming along to without knowing you're doing it - not sure how to describe it, but it's a good thing...

Good stuff, as per usual.

Cheers

Cool, thanks very much for your thoughts Armistice - I'm glad it worked for you overall and that you liked. I've agonised over the vocal levels a little - they either seemed too prominent or too buried, and I couldn't pinpoint where I thought the sweet spot was.

Re. the acoustic break section, I was worried it was a little sparse initially so I added the reverse lines - I think it lasts just long enough, but another bar of it would outstay it's welcome. I'll have a think whether there's anything else should go there to maintain the interest.

Yeah, you're right by the way - the title's a pun on Nights In White Satin. I can't help myself...thanks man

Hey Rob- this is cool. Very English sounding, like the stuff of yours I've heard tends to be... I like the melodica-sounding-thingy. Pretty cool.

It's tough for me to understand all the words, but level-wise they sit well with the music so I don't know if I'd touch em. Maybe a little high-end eq or just leave em like they are. I never understand when people feel like every word needs to be perfectly audible. It puts too much weight on the lyrics and I also like a little ambiguity. I often end up disappointed when I read the lyrics to a song I like, when the real lyrics are not as cool as what I thought they were- not that I think that would be the case with your music. It shows that you put effort into them.

Anyways, there's a little bit of looseness in the 2.30-2.50 area...it might be the bass... but it doesn't distract me too much. Overall great tune.

Thanks too fat_fleet, really appreciate it. With another comment on vocal levels, I'm going to revisit, even if it is just tweaking the high end. I'm often a bit savage with cutting high vocal frequencies as there are some sounds at the top of my voice that I tend to wince at.

The comment about sounding very English is quite gratifying too - I listen to a lot of Americana/american folk type stuff and I really like the sense of place in it. I wanted to get that feel too, but of the place I'm from. I'm calling the sub-genre Wild West Lancashire...

Glad you liked the lyrics - I'm with you on not requiring crystal clarity on every line. Ambiguity is all good in music.

When I'm on the speakers and revisiting the vocals, I'll look for the looseness you mention too.

Thanks again ff, very helpful

 

[Bulls Hit]

Knots in white cotton - haha very good. Nice melodies in this. I'm thinking both drums and vocals could come out front more

 

[robgreen]

Knots in white cotton - haha very good. Nice melodies in this. I'm thinking both drums and vocals could come out front more

Cool, thanks very much BH, I'm glad you like. I had a feeling that the vocals still needed some tweaking and all the feedback so far has supported this. Will definitely revisit and probably ease off some of the saturation on them too. Will have another look at drum levels also. Cheers mate

 

[rayc]

Cool title - down under knots in cotton refers to poor muscular development.
The reverse guitar in the background of the change seems fine to me but the instrument playing the solo is too "treated" for my liking.
The rest of the sonmg is fabulous.
Vocal levels are perfect for my taste - I can hear & understand but occassionally need to actually listen which is a good thing I feel.
Nice stuff.
Call in the Happies & make the Madchester remix!

 

[robgreen]

Cool title - down under knots in cotton refers to poor muscular development.
The reverse guitar in the background of the change seems fine to me but the instrument playing the solo is too "treated" for my liking.
The rest of the sonmg is fabulous.
Vocal levels are perfect for my taste - I can hear & understand but occassionally need to actually listen which is a good thing I feel.
Nice stuff.
Call in the Happies & make the Madchester remix!

Great, thanks ray. I've heard the phrase 'knots in cotton' before - but that wasn't what I was thinking of with the title. The lyrics are meant to be a family history - after she retired, my mum researched the family tree and coincidentally found that the suburb of Salford that I work in is also the earliest point that she could trace the family back to in the late 17th century. Aside from the occasional Irish incursion, the family has been largely Manchester/Oldham/Salford based for 300 years - so the idea was that each generation of the family has been playing out their lives on the same ground as all the others for such a long time. Each generation being a new knot on the same thread, and with so many of them working in the cotton mills, the title seemed to work thematically as well as pun-atically.

Glad you liked the song itself too - I'll have a think about the solo part as I can't remember exactly what's on it now.

I'd certainly be up for a remix (looks furtively in the direction of kcearl) - one of the more pretentious thematic elements of the song is that all parts of it should work on top of each other timing wise and keywise (verse vocals work on the chorus and vice versa and any of instrumental parts can slot in anywhere) with the idea being an extension of the lyrics that everything new is sharing the same space as all that preceded it - in short it means that it's ripe for remix...

Thanks for your thoughts as always. Much appreciated

 

[Greg_L]

I think it's a little dark and dull. Lotta low mud muckiness to me. Nothing gets lost or mushy, but there's a cloud of darkness in the low mids. That horn or whatever it is at :59 is a little overpowering.

 

[kcearl]

This reminded me of Rod Argent for some reason...kinda the "Odyssey and Oracle" period, dunno if you know it, beautiful album


I really liked the idea of the song, and funny mentioning it because I was thinking the song doesnt deserve the mix...its a little dark and the levels arent consistent in places, hope that doesnt seem harsh mate...your songwriting and playing are just way better than your mixing sometimes


Id be more than happy to give it a go Rob...Im just trying some drums for Propman but apart from that Im having a vacation from everything else

 

[heatmiser]

This could be really cool. I like the tune. It's kind of cool to hear a more rapid-fire vocal delivery from you, which was unexpected.

I like all of the sounds you captured and the arrangement as well.

The mix seems really boomy to me though and generally lacking in highs. I think to some extent you want that sort of sound as it's somewhat consistant across all of your mixes, but this one seems muddier than most. The acoustic strumming seems to me to be one of the bigger offenders in that area. Things get pretty jumbled sounding at those times. I wonder if you might have a listening environment that minimizes bass or overly accentuates highs? This could cause some overcompensation on your part. Just some thoughts...I really do enjoy the song.

 

[rayc]

A really good pun once the back story is revealed.
Themtically links to a novel I recently reread - String of Time - though that story was pretty unhappy.
I LOOOOOOOOOOVEEEEE Odyssey and Oracle - particularly the original mono version of the album. Any comparison with Argent means you can Hold Your Head Up (sorry).
I like you underpinning of differently occupying the same space across layers but that may be why Greg can hear the build up.
It's too good to leave I think.

 

[robgreen]

I think it's a little dark and dull. Lotta low mud muckiness to me. Nothing gets lost or mushy, but there's a cloud of darkness in the low mids. That horn or whatever it is at :59 is a little overpowering.

Thanks for the listen and your thoughts Greg - I think I had spent most of my efforts focusing on separation between the different elements that it hadn't even occured to me that there was all this lower-mid dominance. Wth you, kc and heat all mentioning it, I listened back with this specifically in mind and you are of course all right. Any remaining doubt removed by running through a frequency analsyt:

Jeez, no wonder it sounds bottom heavy with a ski slope like that. Back to the mixing board, need to pay more attention to this in future. Thanks man.

This reminded me of Rod Argent for some reason...kinda the "Odyssey and Oracle" period, dunno if you know it, beautiful album


I really liked the idea of the song, and funny mentioning it because I was thinking the song doesnt deserve the mix...its a little dark and the levels arent consistent in places, hope that doesnt seem harsh mate...your songwriting and playing are just way better than your mixing sometimes


Id be more than happy to give it a go Rob...Im just trying some drums for Propman but apart from that Im having a vacation from everything else

Hey kc, thanks for your thoughts too - not harsh at all. I get great advice from my missus about what works/doesn't/is out of tune/boring but she can't really help on the mix, so all this kind of constructive criticism here is mega helpful. I'm not here for folks to just blow smoke up my ass - I know mixing is generally the area that has the most shortcomings when I make something

As I mentioned above, I hear where you're all coming from so I'll look to address the darkness and levels. I wasn't aware of Rod Argent/Odyssey & Oracle - I've just had a listen on Spotify and what an excellent record. I recognised Care of Cell 44, but hadnt known who it was by, and of course knew Time of The Season. Quite happy to be compared on some level with this record

If you're up for a remix that would be cool - I think there's a few dubby elements to it as is which may be fun to explore further. I'll PM you. Cheers mate!

This could be really cool. I like the tune. It's kind of cool to hear a more rapid-fire vocal delivery from you, which was unexpected.

I like all of the sounds you captured and the arrangement as well.

The mix seems really boomy to me though and generally lacking in highs. I think to some extent you want that sort of sound as it's somewhat consistant across all of your mixes, but this one seems muddier than most. The acoustic strumming seems to me to be one of the bigger offenders in that area. Things get pretty jumbled sounding at those times. I wonder if you might have a listening environment that minimizes bass or overly accentuates highs? This could cause some overcompensation on your part. Just some thoughts...I really do enjoy the song.

Cool, thanks for your thoughts too heat. I think you may be partially right about the mixing environment - I work in a small boxy room with got no treatment at the moment and some pretty basic old hi-fi speakers to track/mix with - none of these can be helping. The mix does sound relatively balanced to me in this environment - I think I need to spend some time and cash over the next few months improving it as it feels like it's holding me back. That said, I can still hear what folks are alluding to now that I listen back, so it’s something to focus on revisiting this and with future mixes.

I'm really glad you like the song - it's a bit different stylistically and has been fun to do. On balance I'd rather be mixing good stuff badly than the reverse Cheers man

A really good pun once the back story is revealed.
Themtically links to a novel I recently reread - String of Time - though that story was pretty unhappy.
I LOOOOOOOOOOVEEEEE Odyssey and Oracle - particularly the original mono version of the album. Any comparison with Argent means you can Hold Your Head Up (sorry).
I like you underpinning of differently occupying the same space across layers but that may be why Greg can hear the build up.
It's too good to leave I think.

Cool, thanks for coming back in ray - I know you're interested in the lyrical side of things, so I hoped the back story would be of interest to you. Glad it was. Will update when I get chance and repost eventually

 

[VomitHatSteve]

Cool song. My biggest critique is also the muddiness. It kind of sounds cool to start with, but I'd definitely ramp up the high end once the song picks up.

 

[chuckduffy]

Rob there are a lot of great elements in here. I really like it. The whole thing seems like it could be a bit smoother. The vocals are great, but seem like you might be rushing in spots. It's a great drum beat for this tune, but probably not organic enough patch/sound wise. Anyway - once again - your stuff always sets up a real mood evoking vibe. I gotta give this a few more listens. Thanks for sharing this man. I got something to send your way from my practice sessions that I think you might enjoy.

 

[robgreen]

Cool song. My biggest critique is also the muddiness. It kind of sounds cool to start with, but I'd definitely ramp up the high end once the song picks up.

Hey, thanks for your listen and thoughts VHS, I'm glad you like the song. Aye, there's definitely a groundswell of opinion that the low end is muddy - I really need to pay this more attention here and in future.

Cheers man.

Rob there are a lot of great elements in here. I really like it. The whole thing seems like it could be a bit smoother. The vocals are great, but seem like you might be rushing in spots. It's a great drum beat for this tune, but probably not organic enough patch/sound wise. Anyway - once again - your stuff always sets up a real mood evoking vibe. I gotta give this a few more listens. Thanks for sharing this man. I got something to send your way from my practice sessions that I think you might enjoy.

Thank you for listening chuck - and thanks for the critique. When I get chance to remix this I'll look at the vocals and maybe retrack in parts if I can pick up the rushed spots, and I'll take another look at the patches for the beat. In terms of the smoothness, I think for the most part the tracking is okay - I just struggle to pull everything together at the moment.

Great to hear that it sounds like you're playing/recording again - I thought it was a shame when you mentioned you were hanging up your DAW for good. Definitely send it my way and I''ll look forward to listening - you're stuff's too good to give up on because of frustration with crappy hardware.

By the way, you do all know that I deliberately post amateurish first mixes, in order to blow you away with the follow ups, right?

 

[kcearl]

fricken clever ploy

 

[polok_dark]

Good and different composition.

Is it just me or does anyone else too feels that the left monitor need some love too. the entire time i felt like the song was playing on my right monitor only.

Nice change at 2:27

 

[robgreen]

Good and different composition.

Is it just me or does anyone else too feels that the left monitor need some love too. the entire time i felt like the song was playing on my right monitor only.

Nice change at 2:27

Thanks for your comments polok, I'm glad you liked. I'm redoing the mix at the moment, so I'll have a look at whether the mix is Right heavy.

Welcome to the forum man - if you re-up your mix, I'll have a listen

 

[ecktronic]

Overall its a bit unclear in the low mids. The bass could be mixed better to fit in with the Mix better, try compression and EQ in the low mids.
The drums are hidden, so cut the low mids on them and boost the volume and boost the high mids. These are just suggestions off the top of my head.

Guitar at 2:30 is out of tune, I'd re-record that in tune, and noticed a note out of place at the end of that section also.

I really like the vocal style and sounds nice, but I would bring it out more with volume, maybe more compression also.

G