Proper gain levels for drum tracking?

[sixer2007]

hey guys,

I was just curious if there are proper levels at which to set gain knobs for drum tracking? Or should I just set them so that the mics pick up the set with a decent level and then tweak the levels more while mixing? Will having too much gain make them sound harsh? Any thoughts?

 

[mixsit]

Assuming digital..
In the best of worlds your A/D converter's input sensitivity (voltage scaling into the converter) aligns with the preamp or other device feeding it; I.E they're both in the same nominal target range. Good resonalble level from the one is within the good range of the the other.
In that case you would look at the pre's level (if it idicates it) and on your loudest peaks shoot for several db below 0db full scale on the recorder's peak reading meters.

Then there is the case where the preamp (or other) may be output different level than the A/D, or you're pushing it hotter or cooler for tone reasons. ...see 'in-line pads' or 'is pre x' is too hot for..?' which does happen quite often. - QTC-1 on the kit here, dynamics on the kick and/or snare, pre is min 20 or 30db gain, on a strong hitter have to pad drum channels (actually more ofrten I put the pad at the pre's output to the converter but, same same.
In some cases you'd have an input and output control on the pre (and/or other) and converters that have adjustable input sensitivity- in which case lots of ways go.

 

[RAMI]

You don't have to worry about the final level going into your DAW (assuming we're talking about recording digitally). Just make sure it's coming in WELL BELOW 0db.....like peaking at no louder than -6db (and I'm being generous with that).

Where you have to worry about your levels is in the analogue chain going into the DAW. But if you're just plugging mics straight into your interface, then all you have to worry about is keeping your level WELL BELOW 0db, like I said above.

 

[Massive Master]

I tell the drummer (after he warms up) to "stop hitting like a little girl" and then set those to peak somewhere between -15 and -10dBFS. Overheads peak at maybe -18dBFS or so (as would a distant room mic).

 

[JimmyS1969]

Just to add my PE here, -12dBFS (the scale used by digital gear) is the basic equivalent to 0dB on an analog setup. This is your ideal input level into your DAW. An easy way to tell if your gain structure is near correct, is to keep you DAW's input fader at 0dBFS. The input level coming in should be at around -12. Especially if a percussive instrument, as the actual peak may be hitting -6dBFS without you being able to see the transients register at the meter. If you need to lower your DAW's level at the input stage, your input signal is probably too hot. Adjust your preamps accordingly. There are possible different approaches to this, but that will get you on the right track. There is no right or wrong way, but the ideal for clean recording is keeping in this range

 

[RAMI]

Just to add my PE here, -12dBFS (the scale used by digital gear) is the basic equivalent to 0dB on an analog setup.

That can vary, Jimmy. I was under the impression that -18 equalled 0db until I read here that it can vary from -12 to -20. Just pointing that out so that nobody thinks it's a standard number.

 

[sixer2007]

Alright, thanks for the heads up! I'll make sure to keep the peaks nice and low. One more thing though... If for some reason I need to turn the gain up pretty high to get a decently loud signal, will it color the sound? I know that sometimes when I record my guitar through DI, if the gain is past about 50% on my interface it starts to sound pretty crappy. Is this the same while using pre amps on an interface?

 

[RAMI]

It will sound crappy when it clips. But, the question is, why would you need to "turn the gain up pretty high to get a decently loud signal"? There's no reason for that. It won't make anything sound better, or thicker, or warmer....just "louder".

If you find that you can't get an instrument loud enough in the mix no matter how much you turn it up, then you just need to bring everything else down.

 

[Farview]

Usually you don't have a problem getting enough level without having to crank the preamp when you are recording drums. That's more of a problem when you are recording quiet instruments through dynamic mics. With drums, sometimes you have the opposite problem, where you can't turn the preamp down enough to keep it from clipping.

 

[sixer2007]

Usually you don't have a problem getting enough level without having to crank the preamp when you are recording drums. That's more of a problem when you are recording quiet instruments through dynamic mics. With drums, sometimes you have the opposite problem, where you can't turn the preamp down enough to keep it from clipping.

Yeah, I can see your point there. I know my drummer likes to smack em pretty hard. So what would you recommend in a situation like that? Sorry for the noob questions. I haven't tried to track drums yet, so trying to get myself prepared before I make a huge mess!

 

[JimmyS1969]

That can vary, Jimmy. I was under the impression that -18 equalled 0db until I read here that it can vary from -12 to -20. Just pointing that out so that nobody thinks it's a standard number.

Absolutely, calibration can vary. Good point. It has been tested on another forum as well. The bottom line is that '0'dBFS is the terminating point of any clean digital signal. There is no good digital clipping as far as I know. Getting near it is not even close to a good point to start from. I may have inaccurately wrote -12dBFS again. I think you may be correct with -18.

Post your link Massive. I am in the middle of something or I would myself.

 

[Greg_L]

I just set mine so they don't clip and never worry one rat's vagina hair about what the number is.

 

[Guitargodgt]

I just set mine so they don't clip and never worry one rat's vagina hair about what the number is.

Yeah this, I don't know why anyone over thinks it.

If you track and you clip at any point, then the gain is to high.

 

[Greg_L]

Yeah this, I don't know why anyone over thinks it.

If you track and you clip at any point, then the gain is to high.

And with digital, the signal doesn't change as you approach zero. It's not like tape saturation or analog distortion. In digital, it's the same till you hit zero, and then it's shit. I'm not suggesting anyone record as hot as possible. I'm just saying that I don't pay any attention to the numbers. I just don't clip.

 

[Massive Master]

Yeah this, I don't know why anyone over thinks it.

If you track and you clip at any point, then the gain is to high.

The fact that you don't reach digital clipping means nothing if you're running the analog chain far over spec...

And with digital, the signal doesn't change as you approach zero. It's not like tape saturation or analog distortion.

After conversion, yes. But before conversion is where all the damage is going to happen.

In digital, it's the same till you hit zero, and then it's shit. I'm not suggesting anyone record as hot as possible. I'm just saying that I don't pay any attention to the numbers. I just don't clip.

If your converters are calibrated to -18dBFS (= line level), then by the time you're even in the same zip code as "clipping" you're overloading the analog components by around 300%. Some (usually freakishly expensive) gear can handle that sort of voltage without too much damage. Much of the popular stuff out there can't come close -- Although some of it might be perfectly usable around 'normal' voltage (M-Audio's DMP3 is the perfect example of a perfectly decent sounding preamp that turns to complete crap quickly when pushed even a little).

The whole point of digital - especially with 24-bit digital - is to be able to actually use normal levels with incredibly high resolution. I don't like watching numbers much myself -- But "as long as I'm not clipping" during tracking is (A) wholly unnecessary and (B) almost without exception, just plain bad sounding by comparison (assuming the signal is "somewhere short of clipping").

I don't mean to drone on about it (which is why I ended up writing that blog article in the first place - because I droned on about it far too often), but after dozens and dozens and dozens (they keep coming in) of messages from people - some of whom have been struggling for years trying to make decent quality recordings - suddenly hugely improved that quality just from using "normal" tracking levels... It still blows my mind that anyone ever thought anything different in the first place.

YES - During mixing and processing, those internal levels don't really make a difference (except with many plugs that are designed to emulate analog gear). But you only get a chance to get a clean signal with a good SNR once.

 

[Greg_L]

What the hell is a "normal" tracking level? There's too much varying info out there. You say one thing, someone else says something else, my ears tell me it doesn't matter, so what gives?

 

[Farview]

Here's the other thing that people seem to ignore. Line level is an average level, not a peak level. There aren't many preamps that will start doing damage to a signal that peaks at -4dbfs with an average of -32dbfs. The average signal level should be at line level, what ever that is on your system. The peaks don't matter at all unless they clip.

So, a good recording level for a cow bell could be peaking at -4dbfs. While a good recording level for a violin could be peaking at -18dbfs. Both will have about the same average level at line level. (assuming -18dbfs + line level calibration)

So, with drums and other very percussive, short burst types of sounds, you just have to worry about keeping it from clipping. With sounds that have a longer decay, you need to put the held part of the sound/note at around line level. (obviously still making sure that the attack of the note doesn't clip)

 

[miroslav]

I think another thing that might throw people is the operating level their gear is set at... -10 or +4.
Some gear will do either/or, you just have to tell it which, and some gear might only be one or the other.

So....if you have something like a preamp that is operating at +4 on its Line out...and your A/D interface is set at -10...then the signal you see on your A/D meters will appear much higher than if the A/D was also set to +4.

It's just something to be aware of, as it makes a difference when you are trying to target a certain level on the digital meters, as very often preamps may not have output meters at all, so knowing the operating level (and setting) of both output and input devices is important.

 

[Guitargodgt]

What the hell is a "normal" tracking level? There's too much varying info out there. You say one thing, someone else says something else, my ears tell me it doesn't matter, so what gives?

People get to hung up on shit. Buy interface, plug in mic, turn up the gain a bit but not enough to clip ever and hit record.

 

[Greg_L]

People get to hung up on shit. Buy interface, plug in mic, turn up the gain a bit but not enough to clip ever and hit record.

It's funny. I didn't know this beforehand (I never read the manual) but I checked it out after seeing this thread, and the manufacturer of my interface specifically says to "set the input gain as high as possible without clipping". Their "how to" video on their website says the same thing.