So I was at Sam Ash and the guy ask me if I want to play a Gibson Les Paul

  • Thread starter Thread starter arcadeko
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The videos clearly show the guitars being MANUFACTURED in the TN facility.

Not ASSEMBLED from parts shipped in from SE Asia.

That was the point. Took about 5 seconds to find those videos. If you bothered to watch, they show the bodies being cut from slabs of mahagony and being milled, as well as pickups being wound, finishing, and final QC.

It's nothing personal with you, however much of a clod you are always mouthing off about stuff you know jackshit about. Maybe you should hang out in the Synth Forum and spout more nonsense about MIDI that you know nothing about.

Gibson is way more upfront about their sourcing than Shure and a host of other manufacturers.
 
If you turn the sound down on those videos the Gibson factory in Nashville didn't seem that different to the one in China. I mean - it didn't look like the video you see of sweatshops with a single bare light bulb hanging over a 12 year old pumping out Nike's or whatever. It's pretty cool Cliff from cheers got a job with Gibson. (see 4:58 in the first Gibson video).

My Epiphone has a sticker on the back

Epiphone-Baritone-89.jpg


Not sure if they all do, I forgot to check the ones at the store. So it's inspected and setup in the US, I guess that pretty much states that it wasn't built there.
 
some of the price is the craftsmanship, materials, and look of the guitar.

One of the biggest things you can do to improve the sound of a guitar is get better pickups, pots, and change the capacitors. The caps used in most production guitars cost about 15 cents, pick up a couple of nice ones for a few bucks, and you'll hear a world of difference. Change the pots to 250k or 500k, and get some good ones should cost about $15 more than the stock pots, and for around $25 your have a much higher end guitar. If you wanna go all out and make the most difference get some good p/u. So for a total investment of $250 you can change a $300 guitar into a $1500 guitar for 1/3 the price.

I did this to a 1992 MIM fender strat and now it plays like a guitar costing 3Xs as much. Companies cut corners (on purpose to make their higher end stuff sound better).
 
I also recently discovered that Epiphones are surprisingly good quality compared to the Gibsons, and at a fraction of the price. It's now pretty likely that an Epiphone Les Paul will be my next guitar, as I've always wanted a Les Paul, but have never had the money.

One of the major differences, frankly, is just the brand of Gibson. Which may seem ludicrous, but if you type "Gibson Les Paul" into ebay and sort by the most expensive, you'll be amazed at the money being exchanged for these guitars. Newer Les Pauls will retain their value with time, too, unlike the majority of guitars out there. So if value is a concern for you...
 
I suspect the market for uber-expensive, "collectable" guitars is a bubble market, that will, one day, pop. Frankly, I was surprised it did not do so about three years ago, when the economy tanked- the market took a considerable dip, but not what I expected. One of the hallmarks of a bubble economy is that the prices paid has little real-world resemblance to "functional" value, which is certainly the case with guitars- once you start paying tens of thousands of dollars for a guitar, you are well past the point of diminishing returns.

I can't afford a Gibson, currently, which is really the main reason I play (among others) an Epi. I got lucky and found a MIA Strat I could afford, but that has not happened with a Gibson for me, yet. Once I got and modded the Epi to what I like, I sorta stopped looking for a Gibson. 'Course, if one falls into my lap...

I have all kinds of mixed emotions about Gibson. Yes, I'd like to own one. The probability of getting a good Gibson is certainly much higher than getting a good China-made guitar, probably even a bit higher than getting a good Epiphone. I agree that they are one of the iconic guitars, and playing one lends the guitarist a bit of cache'. I am no fan of China's business practices, either. OTOH, Gibson seems to not care that headstocks break easily (maybe the reason they don't care is because the break is not covered under the warranty, so this becomes a little source of profit when those broken guitars get sent back to Gibson for "authorized repair,) the company has a broad reputation of being a sucky place to work, and they seem to be willing, to some extend or another, to work both sides of the street when it comes to making instruments in any particular country. Go to Epiphone's website- home page includes the statement "...The Epiphone Company, A part of the Gibson family of brands." Epi's are not made in the US, but the parent company seems happy to allow consumers to make the association if it will sell guitars. But, Gibson rails against LP-shaped guitars made in China. The point of demarcation seems clear enough, if you read between the lines- if Gibson makes money from it, it's okay. If they don't, it's junk.

Really, what does "Made in the USA" mean, anymore? One of my vehicles is a Ford Ranger. It was made in Kentucky- that's in the US, and Ford is a US company. But wait- Mazda's a Japanese company, and the same assembly line made Mazda B-series trucks- one month, Rangers, the next, B's. Pull off the door panel on either truck (I have done this) and you see FoMoCo ovals stamped on them. But, many of the components are made in... Japan, Korea, Mexico, elsewhere. So, what is a made-in-USA vehicle? (I happen to also own a Mazda Protege5, btw.) The same might be said of Gibson guitars (this the point I could not get clarification on from Gibson): Okay, the pups are assembled at a US plant- but where were the magnets, the covers, the screws made? Where was the wire pulled? Somebody knows, but they sure weren't telling me, that day I called Gibson. The most "Made in USA" company I know of is Mag Instruments. The owner of that company insist that every Mag Light be made in the US. It is probably wildly impractical to make every part in the US, but Mag Instruments is dedicated to doing what they can, here in the USA. The most expensive Mag Light cost, what, $50? If a company that makes $50 retail-cost items can do it, there is no reason a company that makes $3,000 retail-cost items can't.

They can, they just don't.
 
Made in the USA just means they had to pay labor union workers 20 times what they could pay Chinese workers. It also means they have to add a 50% premium to overcome the super restrictive environmental restrictions that no other country abides by. Made in California means you need to double all of the previous numbers. We put all of these restrictions in place to make ourselves feel better, then all private companies go overseas where these restrictions don't exist, then we feel bad that we are making poor Chinese children work in sweat shops, but we can't afford to buy everything made in the USA, so we end up killing the US economy in the process.

What it does not mean is higher quality, and better products.

But, I do really love those new gold top reissues!
 
I'm not going to enter into a discussion of most of your points, even though I don't agree with many of them, but there is this one thing...

aaronmcoleman said:
...we can't afford to buy everything made in the USA, so we end up killing the US economy in the process...
Click to expand...

Really, we CAN afford the made in USA things we NEED- most of the stuff we spend our money on, we only WANT. We have allowed ourselves to believe we "need" or at least "deserve" a certain level of luxury, and we support that false sense of luxury by buying cheap overseas-produced goods.
 
stevieb said:
Really, we CAN afford the made in USA things we NEED- most of the stuff we spend our money on, we only WANT. We have allowed ourselves to believe we "need" or at least "deserve" a certain level of luxury, and we support that false sense of luxury by buying cheap overseas-produced goods.
Click to expand...

I seriously need like 6 guitars :)
 
stevieb said:
I'm not going to enter into a discussion of most of your points, even though I don't agree with many of them, but there is this one thing...



Really, we CAN afford the made in USA things we NEED- most of the stuff we spend our money on, we only WANT. We have allowed ourselves to believe we "need" or at least "deserve" a certain level of luxury, and we support that false sense of luxury by buying cheap overseas-produced goods.
Click to expand...

Yeah, everything we NEED can be procured made in USA, but the point stands, that made in the USA costs a whole lot more than made almost anywhere else.

One of the big reasons American made guitars cost so much is the cost of doing business here. So to answer the original question, no, a $3000 Les Paul does not sound $2600 better than a $400 epiphone. It sounds better, sometimes significantly better, but a lot of that cost is not going toward the sound it's going toward the cost of business in the USA.

Good caps, pots, pickups, and hardware can cost less than $400 more than crappy ones.
 
Not disputing that point, aaron, just saying that if we could do just fine if we adjusted out attitudes away from consumption.

"Six guitars" could be an example. Not ragging on you, arcardeko, just using that as a handy example. One Gibson Les Paul, at $3,000, would probably be much better than ten China specials at $300 each, and the buyer would be supporting our own, (and now I am going to take on your points, aaron) the people who made it would have earned a living wage, the way it was made would have not contributed to environmental destruction, and the US economy would benefit.

Oh, and I mitigate my contribution to shipping dollars to China by buying used. I know my Epi LP and Super Champ XD were both made in the far east- but I was not the one to support China imports. Yes, it's both a fine and a fuzzy line.
 
My other point was that a $400 Epi Les Paul could be upgraded for a few hundred to sound almost as good as a $3000 Gibson. This is even more true of the Fender guitars. A $300 Strat can be made to sound better than a $1500 strat for less than $300. So, regardless of where they are made, really nice guitars can be made for reasonable prices.
 
Agreed, aaron. I've done as much with an Epi LP and a Squire Strat.
 
Honestly, in my opinion, the only time I would drop $3,000+ on an instrument would be for a nice acoustic or acoustic electric guitar, because even an untrained musician can hear the difference. Honestly, in my opinion, it doesn't matter if you buy a $100,000 vintage Black Beauty or a $150 Epiphone Les Paul Special. Buy what you feel gives you the sound YOU want, and the guitar you feel the most comfortable playing. The most expensive guitar won't make you sound any better if you don't feel comfortable playing it. So just get a guitar and setup that YOU love the sound of, and after a while, everyone else will start to love it too.
 
sign of the times...

collectors often require logo for resale and wont have anything else imo. they dont really play them much anyway just admire the workmanship.

to have the "real deal" group, are better off forking up the money because a Epi will never satisfy their jones...gotta be a GIBSON on the headstock at least.

the HR who play everything, my box, realizes no one can tell if its a $99 electric or a $5000 electric unless I tell them it is.

the others who mod....and swap out stuff seem to have the most fun.

i think solid body electrics its the pickup for main tones, and theres difference in tones in pickups that i have noticed more than 2microns of poly versus 4 microns of nitro....or 5 microns of red paint that deadens the vibration too.
but thats all over my head (and wallet).

sure if I could . I'd be buying 55 gold tops like McCartney too...

as for all the outsourcing comments...I worked mfg, watched it go overseas for various reasons.... and a lot of people out of jobs, though hardly none of the suits were let go, as of today its fact online the CEO's are making 100 times what they were.
where it will end? whats in the future? long term effect, short term effect? ... Japaneese cars being built here, but US companies have to go overseas??? its a subject that bores me after awhile... maybe its part of the Rapture end of the world today?
 
Everyone is talking about resale value of instruments, and I do agree that it is a valid thing to bring up, HOWEVER, when people buy instruments, at least when I buy an instrument, resale value never really pops into my head. I just know that I'm going to be doing music for the rest of my life, and I've never sold any of my music gear, so although resale might be important to some, perhaps your own personal feelings about the instrument in general (sound, playability, looks) should be more important than the resale value of the guitar. But that might just be me. :confused:
 
I'm one of those who think the pickups are 90% the tone and sound of the solid body electric.
 
stevieb said:
I suspect the market for uber-expensive, "collectable" guitars is a bubble market, that will, one day, pop. Frankly, I was surprised it did not do so about three years ago, when the economy tanked- the market took a considerable dip, but not what I expected. One of the hallmarks of a bubble economy is that the prices paid has little real-world resemblance to "functional" value, which is certainly the case with guitars- once you start paying tens of thousands of dollars for a guitar, you are well past the point of diminishing returns.

I can't afford a Gibson, currently, which is really the main reason I play (among others) an Epi. I got lucky and found a MIA Strat I could afford, but that has not happened with a Gibson for me, yet. Once I got and modded the Epi to what I like, I sorta stopped looking for a Gibson. 'Course, if one falls into my lap...
Click to expand...

I still see USA Strats for $450-500 pretty regular on CL, GC buys them below that and puts them on the shelf for little under a new one. US Les Pauls is another story....geeez they've gotten expensive. I remember trading in a worn one needing hardware(corroded) for $400 trade, now its on the shelf for $3200...where as the STrats maybe went from new $400 to a new one at $999.

Its possible these guitars won't follow the beanie baby and other fad widgets, and the price will continue to escalate even in the great recession and future..

There is no indicator the prices will fall. Actually as you posted... the data point of this "great recession" shows the prices won't fall is true, as prices have kept going up during this great-recession.

Similar to the vintage car industry, thats now also gotten insane with the richer baby boomers now driving up the price on things the uber-wealthy can afford, like paying $100,000 for a MOPAR BArracuda.....

like all collectors driven by money value or rarity, "when do you sell?" before the mania disappears?

I wonder if there's any uber-wealthy on this forum? Maybe they can explain a view of the prices skyrocketing and why they pay the price?

BUt for the OP's question was "tone and sound"....

I had the chance to play a old 1958 and it wasnt any better tone and sound than my guitar, and my neighbor sold it for $10,000.
Big difference between collecting and "tone and sound"...
 
CoolCat said:
Big difference between collecting and "tone and sound"...
Click to expand...

And I would think that most people in this forum would want to know more about tone than the resale value of their guitars ;)
 
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