I could use your help!

[morejaylesswar]

I've been seriously teaching myself about mixing for about 9 months now, so excuse me if how I explain things are remedial at best. I can only convey them to you in a way that makes sense to me. Hopefully that doesn't inhibit you from helping me.

Here's the song I need your help on: "Precious" - Jay Adams

The original song is Floetry's "Say Yes." So I can't have the necessity of having a tracked out beat.

A bit of information:

• This was recorded on an MXL 990, so I'm not expecting amazing vocal quality.
• I am mixing and recording inside of Pro Tools with a whole host of plug ins that my previous professor was so graciously enough to put on my external hard drive for me from his own collection.
• The song was recorded in a sound proof space with soft walls, but there are a lot of other smaller objects around that may mess with sound quality.

When I see vocals, I see it like a sphere. A good vocal (something like this) sounds like this to me. Unfortunately, mine sound like this.

Does that make sense?

My vocals sound like their needs to be some extra crap chizzled off to make it smooth. Like a marble sculpture.

I don't know what to do to get them to sound a lot more smoother.

This vocal is processed with compression first, then EQ, then a de-esser to cut out some of the harsh high ends (I just do it because that's all I could think of... It's just some kind of try then fail or succeed kinds of things.) After that I add a reverb. That's all.

I know there isn't any exact science, but can someone point me in the right direction as to which process does what and how it could contribute to a smoother sounding vocal?

Thank you!

 

[PDP]

I'd be more concerned with the static in the beginning of the track. As far a "smooth" is concerned, you get what you pay for. A Neumann U87 with a Neve pre-amp is smoother than a chinese condensor mic into a sound card. Your vocal sounds fine to me ?

 

[ido1957]

Yep the performance is good but an MXL is gonna sound like an MXL.

 

[morejaylesswar]

I'd be more concerned with the static in the beginning of the track. As far a "smooth" is concerned, you get what you pay for. A Neumann U87 with a Neve pre-amp is smoother than a chinese condensor mic into a sound card. Your vocal sounds fine to me ?

The static is on the original song "Say Yes" by Floetry. I think it's there to add the appeal of an old record playing.

I am aware that I am on a less than stellar set up, but I truly believe that I can maximize what I'm using for the time being. I've heard somethings that have been recorded using this mic that come out far better than my own. Even things that I've done. I recently did a record with my group called "On Top Of The World" and the mix sounds a lot better than this one, to me at least.

I just don't know what I'm really doing, so a lot of the stuff that comes out good is just luck. I want to know what I'm doing so I can repeat that process and improve on it. Like, why does this one sound better than the other and what made it sound this way. I have a remedial understanding of sound, frequencies, and everything else. I'm looking to just know more.

 

[morejaylesswar]

Yep the performance is good but an MXL is gonna sound like an MXL.

Understood, but I do know that there are ways of making it sound like an MXL being used to it's full potential (which may be sub-par at best) by an engineer who knows a little more about what they're doing.

 

[PDP]

I am aware that I am on a less than stellar set up, but I truly believe that I can maximize what I'm using for the time being. I've heard somethings that have been recorded using this mic that come out far better than my own. Even things that I've done. I recently did a record with my group called "On Top Of The World" and the mix sounds a lot better than this one, to me at least.

Like, why does this one sound better than the other and what made it sound this way. .

Your talking/asking about two different things, the way you record vocals, and how they sound in a finished mix. There are so many variables. Both tracks you posted were done with the same front end? (Mic, pre, convertors) Bet they werent.

I have a feeling your just posting here to get clicks on your sites, I hope not, we fuckin hate that here.

 

[morejaylesswar]

Your talking/asking about two different things, the way you record vocals, and how they sound in a finished mix. There are so many variables. Both tracks you posted were done with the same front end? (Mic, pre, convertors) Bet they werent.

I have a feeling your just posting here to get clicks on your sites, I hope not, we fuckin hate that here.

Do you assume that because I'm a Hip-Hop artist? I've seen how condescending the people here can be toward Hip-Hop guys.

Everything that I post on this website is recorded with the same MXL microphone, the same Mbox, the same Pro Tools 8, in the same room, with the mic in the same spot. How dare you accuse me of doing anything else other than what I obviously stated that I'm here to do? I want to learn more about music production. I came here as humble as I possibly can be with an open mind. I don't know anything other than what I've taught myself.

It's people like you who discourage anyone from asking questions. I post songs of mine so that I can have examples. Did you even read my original post? I can't really explain what's going on, so it's easier for me to just post the songs. I made both of my SoundCloud accounts SPECIFICALLY for this website so that I can have a place to upload music to go along with my questions.

It's extremely odd that you would point out that I'm talking about two different things, but you don't take the time to explain to me what those two different things are. I obviously don't know much, hence why I'm asking the question. You're counterproductive. You've done nothing but frustrate me to no ends. What's the good in being a frequent contributor if you don't have a desire to help someone with a serious question? If you can't help me or you don't have a genuine interest in imparting knowledge on a person who obviously has a thirst to know more than what he obviously knows, then please refrain from posting in any thread that I make.

I still have the same questions that I've been asking since day one. Is there anyone here that can explain these things to me or is this some ancient Chinese secret that your families have held on to for years? All I want is a better understanding of sounds, frequencies, the hardware, and the software that I'm using.

I never thought I'd be accused of anything other than wanting to learn. How discouraging?

 

[morejaylesswar]

Here's an update for anyone else that is seriously interested in helping.

REMIXED: "Precious" - Jay Adams

I sat down today and listened to the first mix and tried to find out what I didn't like about it. It sounded like there was a blanket over my vocals that was stopping them being full. The first thing I could think of was the compression. I didn't know what to do about it, so I googled more about what compression does. I have a small understanding, but I still don't get it. So what I did was lower the ratio and raise the threshold.

After I messed with the compression a bit more, I went to the EQ and added a bit of low end back to compensate for what I previously took out. I also lowered the highs that I had raised in the original mix that I posted earlier.

I think this mix sounds a lot better than the other one.

Is there anyone that can explain to me why this one sounds better with what I just told you. That way I can have an understanding of what I did wrong and how to use the resources that I have to improve my mixing. Not just for me, but for the other people I record. I'm in school for this now. It's something that I want to do with the rest of my life. So, anything that you can help me with is better than nothing.

Thank you.

 

[PDP]

First off, nobody owes you anything here. I wrote " I hope you didnt come here just to get clicks, (which is common here and a waist of time, NOT AN ACCUSATION) How many people have you helped here? and yet you feel justified to go on and on about how righteous you are. (humble my arse) and I still dont get your point. If you used the same gear and room to record "Precious" as you did to record "On top of the World" what is your problem? If you were there for both recordings what is it you dont get? I did read your post and took the time to listen to both recordings. Sorry I waisted my time.

 

[PDP]

Do you assume that because I'm a Hip-Hop artist? I've seen how condescending the people here can be toward Hip-Hop guys.

Yup they're the worst offenders.

 

[robgreen]

morejaylesswar, you don't sound as remedial to me as you seem to think you are. I actually prefer Precious to On Top of The World, maybe because it has a little more of a rough edge to the mix. Maybe it's just my personal taste, but with such smooth backing that contrast is good. It's nicely done imo.

I think there's an explanation of compression in the newbie thread, but it basically flattens out some of your higher peaks in the signal - you lose some of the dynamics, but gain more headroom to turn the average volume up. It sounds smoother because there's less fluctuation in the signal. You can probably get away with higher compression in hip hop because the vocals are more about the rhythm and flow than the dynamics.

Re the EQ, it probably sounds better in the remix because you are emphasising frequencies where the body of your vocals are rather than where the frequency tails off. To get the best out of EQ, try and reduce the frequencies you don't want rather than adding to those you do as a rule of thumb. That way you're getting less of the artificial processor in your mix.

 

[morejaylesswar]

First off, nobody owes you anything here. I wrote " I hope you didnt come here just to get clicks, (which is common here and a waist of time, NOT AN ACCUSATION) How many people have you helped here? and yet you feel justified to go on and on about how righteous you are. (humble my arse) and I still dont get your point. If you used the same gear and room to record "Precious" as you did to record "On top of the World" what is your problem? If you were there for both recordings what is it you dont get? I did read your post and took the time to listen to both recordings. Sorry I waisted my time.

Waste* and Wasted*

You have done nothing but condescend. If you are truly here to help, then take the time to do so. I'm well aware that no one is obligated to do anything. I would appreciate if you would never assume or hope that I'm just shamelessly promoting myself here; or anything that feels like an accusation for that matter.

I didn't specifically ask you for your help, you offered. If you are unable or unwilling to help, that's fine. However, I do not need a person "wasting" (without an I) my time the way you are. I've asked for help. I do not feel entitled to it. You're more than welcome to explain to me the difference in the two things that I don't understand and I'll be more than open to learning. But for you to assume that I'm trying to pull a fast one on you or anyone else by posting music that was recorded differently is ludicrous and offensive to someone trying to learn.

I won't entertain that anymore; but I will apologize for my previous post. After rereading it, I did come off strong.

 

[morejaylesswar]

morejaylesswar, you don't sound as remedial to me as you seem to think you are. I actually prefer Precious to On Top of The World, maybe because it has a little more of a rough edge to the mix. Maybe it's just my personal taste, but with such smooth backing that contrast is good. It's nicely done imo.

I think there's an explanation of compression in the newbie thread, but it basically flattens out some of your higher peaks in the signal - you lose some of the dynamics, but gain more headroom to turn the average volume up. It sounds smoother because there's less fluctuation in the signal. You can probably get away with higher compression in hip hop because the vocals are more about the rhythm and flow than the dynamics.

Re the EQ, it probably sounds better in the remix because you are emphasising frequencies where the body of your vocals are rather than where the frequency tails off. To get the best out of EQ, try and reduce the frequencies you don't want rather than adding to those you do as a rule of thumb. That way you're getting less of the artificial processor in your mix.

Rob, thank you! Everything that I've done is based off of luck. If it comes out good, then the odds are that I can't tell you why. I'd love to know why something sounds better. Like, what do these processes do?

As far as compression, I read the explanation and it was done really well. I downloaded and listened to the samples. I couldn't hear a real difference because I wasn't sure what I was listening for. Maybe my ears aren't as advanced yet. I guess it's more like the pallet on your tongue and food. You'll eventually be able to taste different flavors if you work on it. So I'm hoping I'll be able to hear different things if I keep working.

My question about compression is: When you speak about the higher peaks in the signal, do you mean the overall volume or the peaks in sound frequencies? Does that mean if I have a part where the higher frequencies are really loud (ex: in S's) would that compress the frequency or does it just turn it down?

As far as EQing, I read that in a book recently. I think I'm getting a better understanding of EQing. At least more than I did a few months ago.

I'd love to get into other genres with my mixing. I think it's easier for me to mix a singer than a rapper. BUT it's easier for me to mix another rapper before myself. I don't know, everyone else's stuff just seems to sound ten times better.

Thank you for your reply.

 

[PDP]

Waste* and Wasted*
. .

Lol @ Academia

 

[kcearl]

4 reel

 

[joeym]

You're very talented Jay, but the mix needs work. Is it intentional that the backing music is concentrated to the left side? The voice lacks brilliance, that could be fixed with EQ. I'm sure this could turn out better.

 

[robgreen]

Rob, thank you! Everything that I've done is based off of luck. If it comes out good, then the odds are that I can't tell you why. I'd love to know why something sounds better. Like, what do these processes do?

As far as compression, I read the explanation and it was done really well. I downloaded and listened to the samples. I couldn't hear a real difference because I wasn't sure what I was listening for. Maybe my ears aren't as advanced yet. I guess it's more like the pallet on your tongue and food. You'll eventually be able to taste different flavors if you work on it. So I'm hoping I'll be able to hear different things if I keep working.

My question about compression is: When you speak about the higher peaks in the signal, do you mean the overall volume or the peaks in sound frequencies? Does that mean if I have a part where the higher frequencies are really loud (ex: in S's) would that compress the frequency or does it just turn it down?

As far as EQing, I read that in a book recently. I think I'm getting a better understanding of EQing. At least more than I did a few months ago.

I'd love to get into other genres with my mixing. I think it's easier for me to mix a singer than a rapper. BUT it's easier for me to mix another rapper before myself. I don't know, everyone else's stuff just seems to sound ten times better.

Thank you for your reply.

You're welcome, I think you've got talent too.

Re. your questions: compression reduces the peaks in the overall volume - it sounds smoother and sits in the mix better because the overall volume level is more consistent throughout. As an extreme example if you kept moving about away from and closer to the microphone throughout singing/rapping it would sound crap because the resulting recording would be so uneven in volume. You could go some way to leveling this out with compression.

Generally compression is used more subtly than this though. You will naturally have variations in volume throughout, which can make your vocals sound a little like the rock in your OP. You can't just amplify the quiet bits by increasing the volume as you are amplifying the louder bits too and as the wave clips once it hits 0db, you could end up with a really crappy sound. Therefore you use a compressor to reduce the volume range of the wave to within certain parameters and then you can increase the overall volume of the wave in a more controlled way, and it will be much smoother.

I don't know what compression software you're using, but the main features will be:

Ratio - this is the input volume against the output volume. So 1:1 will not alter the sound, but 2:1 will halve the incoming signal

Threshold - sets the point where the compressor kicks in, so that you can specify lower peaks that do not get compressed by the above ratio

Output - You can then increase the overall volume to compensate for the reduction to the input made by the ratio

Attack/Release - set the time it takes to activate and de-activate the compressor. Play about with them and you'll see.

Your EQ control or the de-esser will tackle some of the essing more than the compressor, as you can just roll off some of the higher frequencies (I think all a de-esser does is target and flatten the EQs on the most likely essing frequencies anyway).

To get your ears tuned to the differences, solo your vocals and experiment with the compressor settings. If you set your ratio to 20:1 and your output remains at 0, the volume will drop x20, if you set it to 1:1 or your threshold is higher than your highest peak, you will hear no difference. Play about with the attack/release - for something rapid like rapping you probably want a fast attack as each phrase is so short compared with say a cello or a soul voice. See how it sounds with the ratio 3:1 initially and tweak settings around that.

Avoid too much compression and too high a ratio too, or you'll completely flatten the dynamics of your recording.

Right, that's work successfully avoided for 20 minutes - good luck! Hope this makes more sense of compression for you.