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phlopip
New member
Do you guys change any eq on the amps or mic placements and such when doubling the guitars or do one take. press stop. rewind. then record the 2nd guitar track.
legionserial
New member
I change the amp and the guitar. 
Farview
Well-known member
I generally just use the same guitar and amp settings for both sides. I have a symmetry fetish and I don't want a mix that has more of one frequency on one side than the other.
If I'm doing more than one double, I will change the amp/guitar settings and do two more passes. Making sure that the first and second layers complement each other.
If I'm doing more than one double, I will change the amp/guitar settings and do two more passes. Making sure that the first and second layers complement each other.
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Greg_L
Banned
I'm with this. I have a symmetry compulsive disorder and I like balance from side to side. My two widest guitars will be roughly similar in tone. If I go further and layer underneath those, I'll typicall use a different guitar or amp and usually a cleaner tone.
legionserial
New member
Actually to be honest in most cases I'm the same. I really hate non-symmetrical mixes. I use different amps for layers. Usually that means quadrupling guitars. But it depends on the song.
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
Whatever you do, don't let Stevieb see this !
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Greg_L
Banned
Whatever you do, don't let Stevieb see this !
Oh he will, and he'll foam at the mouth, as usual.
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RAMI
Guest
Awesome! I thought it was just me. I'm in good company.
I usually record one track, then arm another track, and press record again. No changes.
I almost never double other guitar tracks, though. As often as possible, I try to stick to the fantasy that I'm a 4-piece, 2 guitar band. For symmetry, I'll pan the "second" guitar, which isn't doubled, opposite the hi-hat to satisfy my symmetry compulsive disorder hate fetish.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Yeah...when panning tracks, sometimes a degree here/there is enough to disrupt the symmetry for me,...and not just the physical symmetry of the instrument's positions...but I also pay attention to the tonal symmatry of the mix, how the lows, mids, highs balance out L-to-R.
squibble94
Nature of Force
Symmetry guy here. Normally I do two tracks of the same settings, then two tracks of a different setting. I pan the 1st two 100, then the next two 50-80
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TripleM
Well-known member
I couldn't imagine the thought of changing any settings in a doubled guitar part. Gives me the heebie jeebies just thinking about it.
Guitargodgt
New member
When doubling, 2 takes always. Copy paste sounds like shit.
I also like to do 2 takes of 1 amp, pan both opposite then another 2 takes on a different amp and pan those hard as well.
So quadruple tracking.
I REALLY hate using more than 1 guitar on a song as they rarely seem to want to play nice together (intonation etc...)
I also like symmetry, I also like to pan as far as you can go. Not a fan of the 100/80/80/100 pan, or the 100/C/100 scenario, or the 80/80 etc...
If it's a rhythm guitar part that shit is going to the outer limits.
Mixerman
New member
Changing the EQ, amp, and or placement will certainly offer you a wider and more textured sound, but this is nowhere near as effective as using a different guitar and amp for the dbl track. Recording a guitar track and a double with the same setup and same player has a particular sound. Sometimes this is the appropriate sound, although overall, I find this sound a bit boring.
If you really want a great texture and a wide image from dbl tracked guitars, it's even better to swap out the player on the dbl. Of course, the effectiveness of this is dependent on the quality (and existence) of the second guitar player. You certainly don't want to record a subpar dbl track purely for the opportunity of having a different set of hands (and the tone of a guitar derives primarily from the hands of the player).
Changing the part slightly is also a good idea, and makes for a far more interesting production, but there are certainly times when a straight dbl is the best option.
Enjoy,
Mixerman
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Mixerman
New member
I would advise against a symmetry fetish, or a "fetish" of any kind when it comes to how you use your planes of space in a mix. There are five planes of a mix contained within four dimensions (time being the fourth). They are as follows: Frequency (up to down), panning (left to right), balance (front to back), reflectivity (far to near), and contrast (sparse to dense).
Now contrast, while not always necessary or called for, certainly is a valuable tool in mixing. When you keep all of your mixes symmetrical at all times, you're eradicating an element of effective contrast from your mix. Using some asymmetry in your mixes can have the effect of making your symmetrical sections more powerful, and this is exceptionally useful as a dynamic. I use this tool all the time when mixing, because effective pop and rock mixes tend to require less dynamic range than we'd like to use as mixers, mostly because people tend to listen to music in environments that make a large dynamic range problematic. If you have parts on both sides at all times of your mix, you're also going to diminish the illusion of a change in density. Food for thought.
Doing anything as a matter of course based on your personal preferences is inadvisable when mixing (and producing), as it puts your sound above and beyond that of the artist. There are times when a dbl tracked guitar, using the same amp, same guitar, and same player are the desired effect, regardless of my overall preferences. And while as a producer I TEND to shy away from that sound, it would be nothing short of foolish for me to completely remove that particular tool from my arsenal. I would suggest that the same goes for you where symmetry is concerned.
Contrast is an excellent tool in mixing for assisting with forward push through the song. A great songwriter will use techniques that push the listener forward through the song. A great mix will often assist with forward push through the use of smart arrangement techniques.
Enjoy,
Mixerman
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Greg_L
Banned
Bullshit. Most of us mix our own stuff and can do whatever the fuck we want.
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Captain Ego
New member
amen. granted I don't sell any recordings either though. Keeps my target audience of poor ass gutter rock trashy people willing to deal with my crap mix if my crap mix is free. One day when I get it right, I'll sell something I guess, but then I'll win the lottery too and hire engineers to do it for me so all this experimenting will have been for nothing. I better go buy a ticket because my drums are sounding like crusty poo right now and I've been movings mics around all morning.
aaronmcoleman
The truth is out there!
Im with you guys for louder distorted guitars, or anything where I want a thicker sound.
But, when I have a mellower sound or a chimey guitar or want a thinner sound (like a semi-clean VOX sound), I like to use two different sounds on each side. For example, one speaker will be mostly chimey VOX and the other will have something similar but played through the deluxe reverb.
Of course my fetish isn't for symmetry though, just balance.
But, when I have a mellower sound or a chimey guitar or want a thinner sound (like a semi-clean VOX sound), I like to use two different sounds on each side. For example, one speaker will be mostly chimey VOX and the other will have something similar but played through the deluxe reverb.
Of course my fetish isn't for symmetry though, just balance.
Mixerman
New member
It makes no difference whether you're mixing your own stuff or Kate Perry's. Of course you can do what you want. Nowhere in my post do I say you (or the poster I was addressing) can't do what you want. What I've done is point out that using asymmetry is a great TOOL for getting more out of your symmetry. It's not a rule. There's nothing wrong with using symmetry for an entire mix if you deem that the appropriate treatment. But to only do fully symmetrical mixes, and to do this all the time is to ignore, as a matter of course, a highly effective tool.
I would expect you to do nothing less than "whatever the fuck [you] want" when mixing. But does that statement mean you're purposely going out of your way to resist using tried and true techniques that work to make a better mix? I'm thinking not, but you may as well be if you're going to ignore tools that can make your mixes more effective. If you're only mixing to kill time, then sure, whatever. If, on the other hand, you're actually seeking to improve your product (hopefully into something viable--salable even), then employing strategies that can make your mix more effective isn't "bullshit." It's how you improve your results.
There are no arbitrary decisions in a great mix. Creating an effective mix and production requires an long series of interdependent and purposeful decisions based on the song and it's production. If the track is in desperate need of dynamic, then muting one of the dbl guitars in the verse is an effective way of accomplishing that. Not only do you create contrast between the asymmetry of the verse compared to the symmetry of the chorus, you also manage to create a contrast in density, just by virtue of having the extra guitar part. The weaker the song is where lift and payoff are concerned, the more important your mix tools become in the production and mix. If a song needs a little help in the "lift" department, contrast is an exceptionally effective tool, one that is abolished at the peril of being relegated to doing "whatever the fuck [you] want" for nobody other than yourself.
Enjoy,
Mixerman
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Captain Ego
New member
I don't see how liking symmetry is ignoring strategies though, mixerman. I can't stand hearing some frequency area too heavy on either side in headphones, it makes me feel like one of my ears is weighted down, or being stabbed or something like that.
Using panned doubled guitar doesn't do this to me when they both have roughly the same tone, and if there's two different tones both doubled, then I can't stand one tone in one ear and one in the other I think it sounds more 'full' if they crisscross instead of a doubled guitar in my left ear and a doubled different tone in my right ear. I find the frequency difference really thrown off, even if they are all playing the same part. Tone A left and tone A right, tone B left and tone B right works to thicken it out, but tone A x2 L and tone B x2 R just sounds lopsided.
The only time I can deal with hard panning is with exactly the same tone on both sides, or for some kind of special effect part of a song, but riding the whole song just makes it weighted sounding as different frequencies will sound heavy on one side or the other. Its a "strategy" to avoid doing things experimentally when you know your ears don't like the result.
Using panned doubled guitar doesn't do this to me when they both have roughly the same tone, and if there's two different tones both doubled, then I can't stand one tone in one ear and one in the other I think it sounds more 'full' if they crisscross instead of a doubled guitar in my left ear and a doubled different tone in my right ear. I find the frequency difference really thrown off, even if they are all playing the same part. Tone A left and tone A right, tone B left and tone B right works to thicken it out, but tone A x2 L and tone B x2 R just sounds lopsided.
The only time I can deal with hard panning is with exactly the same tone on both sides, or for some kind of special effect part of a song, but riding the whole song just makes it weighted sounding as different frequencies will sound heavy on one side or the other. Its a "strategy" to avoid doing things experimentally when you know your ears don't like the result.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
I think what is being suggested is that within the symmetry of a mix, you can occasionally throw in asymmetrical elements just to break things up...to change the focus.
While I do like a good deal of symmetry in a mix...lately I've been fighting the urge to always do that from beginning to end of a song, by having one or two elements without any counterbalance, but the overall song still has a strong L/R symmetry.
Sometimes I use to get too caught up in that...always wanting to find a counterpart on the left side for what I was doing on the right side. It does shake things up a bit in a nice way when you don't don't follow that approach in a song from beginning to the end with everything.
While I do like a good deal of symmetry in a mix...lately I've been fighting the urge to always do that from beginning to end of a song, by having one or two elements without any counterbalance, but the overall song still has a strong L/R symmetry.
Sometimes I use to get too caught up in that...always wanting to find a counterpart on the left side for what I was doing on the right side. It does shake things up a bit in a nice way when you don't don't follow that approach in a song from beginning to the end with everything.