Crit on mix

[shaunDTSL]

Hey All!

I am new here, been reading the forums for quite a few months now, but this is my first post.

I have done my first recording (well the first I have really thought alright-ish to share with people).

I would like to share it with you all as I have seen/read the brutal honesty of some posts here.... and thats pretty much what I need. If its crap, tell me!

Here is the link:

please can you tell me where I am going wrong with volumes etc, the bass isnt really all that loud and if I turn up the volume on the bass track it seems to distort etc.

Thanks for your time.

 

[tonesponge]

IDK for sure. I'm pretty new at this myself. First thoughts are that the drums need to come up and the lead guitar can come down a bit. The snare sounds dull, compared to what I'm used to hearing. I can't comment much on the rest of the drums or the bass becasue I could not hear them well enough. They were too low in the mix.

I'm not sure whhy your bass would distort unless its clipping on the track. There are two ways to make a track louder. One is to turn up the fader until it clips, and then back it off a little. But that only gets you so far. The other way is to make another track of it.

Just make sure you are using plenty of compression on your bass. It's not unusual for me to set the threshold at -40dB and crank the makeup gain by several dB. Just watch the reduction meter in the compressor plugin. Don't be afaraid to max it out at the peak reduction amount.

 

[sk8a123]

i could barely hear the bass drum

 

[shaunDTSL]

IDK for sure. I'm pretty new at this myself. First thoughts are that the drums need to come up and the lead guitar can come down a bit. The snare sounds dull, compared to what I'm used to hearing. I can't comment much on the rest of the drums or the bass becasue I could not hear them well enough. They were too low in the mix.

I'm not sure whhy your bass would distort unless its clipping on the track. There are two ways to make a track louder. One is to turn up the fader until it clips, and then back it off a little. But that only gets you so far. The other way is to make another track of it.

Just make sure you are using plenty of compression on your bass. It's not unusual for me to set the threshold at -40dB and crank the makeup gain by several dB. Just watch the reduction meter in the compressor plugin. Don't be afaraid to max it out at the peak reduction amount.

Well, that is really some excellent starting points there! Now I can try and make another bass track and/or put compression on it.... which I really didnt do. Then turn the drums up. I will make these changes and repost it. Might be simple, but seems great advice... Yip, thats how new I am to recording! The only technique I used was to record the rythm guitar twice and then pan hard left and hard right on each.

 

[Greg_L]

Don't go doubling tracks. That's silly. You shouldn't have to do that with a sparse mix like this. That was bad advice.

Not too bad for a first-ish recording. Guitars sound pretty good. Timing is rough. The bess is pretty low. You can bring it up by bringing everything else down. It's okay, and preferred, to turn stuff down while mixing. The kick is totally non-existant. Again, bring it up by bringing stuff down. I suspect you spent most of your focus on the guitars. Don't do that. The drums make or break a mix almost every time. Once you get the kick and bass present, you can work on tightening them up with EQ. Make sure they each have presence without losing distinction between the two. That doesn't mean make them both loud, it means have a good, clean kick/bass relationship while still fitting them in the mix. That's the key with stuff like this. Guitars are easy. A good bottom end that thumps along and holds it down without being muddy is the foundation of a good rock mix.

 

[clong89]

Please spend more time on the drums. I can tell your recordings are pretty decent it's your job to just get the levels right and balance everything out. I like the tone of the guitars.

Clong

 

[tonesponge]

Well, that is really some excellent starting points there! Now I can try and make another bass track and/or put compression on it.... which I really didnt do. Then turn the drums up. I will make these changes and repost it. Might be simple, but seems great advice... Yip, thats how new I am to recording! The only technique I used was to record the rythm guitar twice and then pan hard left and hard right on each.

The first stumbling block for new home recording artists is that we don't know we need to put a compressor and brick wall limiter on the master track. Put the compressor in first, followed by the limiter, and select the brick wall limiter preset in the limiter. You should only see about 1 or 2 dB peak reduction on the limiter, but don't be afraid to use a 5:1 ratio on the compressor and go for quite a bit more reduction on the compressor, and as much makeup gain on the compressor as you need to get the meter on the master fader up near clipping level. Set your drums to about -10dB, and leave it there. Then add other tracks and adjust faders. Two things that should be compressed really hard are bass and vocals. Snare should get parallel compression in my view. Once you get those things down, one last thing is that the bass track should typically get another compression that is driven from a side chain having the kick drum as an external key input, but only a very small amount of reduction, and no makeup gain. That's most of what I've learned so far in struggling to get a usable mix.

 

[Greg_L]

The first stumbling block for new home recording artists is that we don't know we need to put a compressor and brick wall limiter on the master track. Put the compressor in first, followed by the limiter, and select the brick wall limiter preset in the limiter. You should only see about 1 or 2 dB peak reduction on the limiter, but don't be afraid to use a 5:1 ratio on the compressor and go for quite a bit more reduction on the compressor, and as much makeup gain on the compressor as you need to get the meter on the master fader up near clipping level. Set your drums to about -10dB, and leave it there. Then add other tracks and adjust faders. Two things that should be compressed really hard are bass and vocals. Snare should get parallel compression in my view. Once you get those things down, one last thing is that the bass track should typically get another compression that is driven from a side chain having the kick drum as an external key input, but only a very small amount of reduction, and no makeup gain. That's most of what I've learned so far in struggling to get a usable mix.

Awful advice.

Please, no one heed this guy's advice.

 

[shaunDTSL]

Ok, I do tend to spend more time on the guitars

I suppose, being a guitarist, I tend to naturally try make the guitars stand out more, which would be fine if the audience listening was just guitarists.... but thats obviously not what this is about.

I have figured (from when I used to play in a band) the relation between the kick and the bass is very important to give the song a solid foundation. I was stumped when recording because the bass was clipping when turning the volume up, so I suppose it makes perfect sense to turn everything else down.

Next I will be learning about eq, I understand the concept of how it makes each intrument operate in its own space in the mix (please correct me if I am wrong), I just dont know how to control and set it yet.

I am pretty happy with the guitar sound I got, so I dont think I will be changing the guitar technique I use to much, although, Some of the riffs I play with some runs, licks, bends etc in between, I cant really record twice (close enough to each other to sound like one track). What would be good practice in recording this type of track and sound fuller?

Sorry, another question, when would be a good time to double up a track like previously said?

Thanks for the help, compliments and crit so far!

 

[Greg_L]

Sorry, another question, when would be a good time to double up a track like previously said?

!

Mostly never. Especially not if it's for volume. That's just freaking stupid. Just turn the other stuff down. That's what mixing is all about.

There are some uses for parallel compression and stuff, but you're not there yet and it's really not necessary for a minimal mix like this. I'm not trying to be a dick, but that tonesponge guy is giving you some really bad advice. He's a noob himself. Put limiters and compressors on everything? Presets? -40db gain reduction? He's steering you in a bad direction. If you need that much processing, then you did something way wrong when tracking. Focus on good playing, good tracking, and good mixing. Then you can use processing as a sound tweak instead of a fix.

EQ is EQ. Boost or cut problem frequencies. Cutting usually yields a better result. For example, you might wanna cut some lows out of a bass to make some room for the kick. You might wanna cut some mids out of a guitar to make some room for voclas. Whatever. Every song and mix is different. Besides learning the basics, you need to make sure your room isn't lying to you. Mixing in a bad room can be tough. Or you can mix through headphones, which isn't much better.

Just don't get caught up in using processing to fix problems. You shouldn't have to double a track to hear it. You shouldn't have to hard compress anything, unless you just want to. You shouldn't have to though.

 

[tonesponge]

that tonesponge guy is giving you some really bad advice. He's a noob himself. Put limiters and compressors on everything? Presets? -40db gain reduction? He's steering you in a bad direction.

Yes, I am not very experienced yet. I appreciate getting feedback on what I think I've learned.

Maybe the need for a compressor and limiter on the 2-bus is kind of DAW specific. I didn't find I needed it until I switched from Logic to Pro Tools. I think Logic has a built in "finalizer" that multiband compresses and limits everything automatically, so I didn't know I needed to do it myself when I switched. But in pro tools, I could have ten parts with the faders all the way up near clipping, but barely be able to hear anything in the bounced track. I finally bought some courses and read articles in mix magazine and bought "pro tools for dummies" and talked to some people online and everbody agreed I have to put a compressor and brick wall limiter on the 2-bus. So that's what I do. Your DAW might be different. But people using other DAWs, like cubase, have told me they do it too. And people who don't compress vocals or bass much in the DAW tell me they are doing compression out front, before it goes into the DAW. Seems a lot of people do a both.

EQ is EQ. Boost or cut problem frequencies. Cutting usually yields a better result. For example, you might wanna cut some lows out of a bass to make some room for the kick. You might wanna cut some mids out of a guitar to make some room for voclas. Whatever. Every song and mix is different. Besides learning the basics, you need to make sure your room isn't lying to you. Mixing in a bad room can be tough. Or you can mix through headphones, which isn't much better.

Just don't get caught up in using processing to fix problems. You shouldn't have to double a track to hear it. You shouldn't have to hard compress anything, unless you just want to. You shouldn't have to though.

Agree with all of this. I suggest the OP look up the EQ sweep technique and try not to EQ much except to eliminate peakiness in tracks. Sometimes high pass filters might be used on bassy parts, and low pass filters on sibilant parts, like cymbals and vocals. A top shelf filter set at about 12K on the master between the compressor and limiter seems common.

 

[sharonclowe]

I'm not qualified to comment on how to fix the mix...but the timing is a little wonky. Also, there is a really weird clicking that is not doing anything to enhance this song...it's at :52 and again at :56....sounds like coconuts being knocked together or something.

 

[shaunDTSL]

Would the room I am recording in make a difference if I am going directly into my fast track pro? I cant imagine it would, but I could be wrong?

Another limitation I have is I am only using headphones to record and mix with... I know, ! But I only really get to record/play late at night when the kids/wife are sleeping. Although they are really nice headphones, they are still headphones.....

I really dont want to get my self to confused with to much technical stuff to quickly, Greg_L, your explanations are fairly easy to follow and seem to start off at grass roots level, thanks! tonesponge, I even really of more newb-iness than you are.... was that english?

sharonclowe, point taken... I thought my coconuts where impressive and I hear you about the timing.

 

[tonesponge]

Would the room I am recording in make a difference if I am going directly into my fast track pro? I cant imagine it would, but I could be wrong?

Another limitation I have is I am only using headphones to record and mix with... I know, ! But I only really get to record/play late at night when the kids/wife are sleeping. Although they are really nice headphones, they are still headphones.....

I really dont want to get my self to confused with to much technical stuff to quickly, Greg_L, your explanations are fairly easy to follow and seem to start off at grass roots level, thanks! tonesponge, I even really of more newb-iness than you are.... was that english?

sharonclowe, point taken... I thought my coconuts where impressive and I hear you about the timing.

If you are recording direct, then the room is not in play.

Mixing on headphones is not ideal, but it can be done. Headphones usually don't have enough bass reproduction for accurate tracking, so the tendency is to wind up with too much bass. You obviously don't have that problem yet. Some people recommended the audiotechinca headphones with bass boost to me, because they seem to be pretty good for accurate bass tracking, and I've been using those with OK results. The main thing you can't really hear on headphones is phase issues, but you will tend to avoid phase issues since you are recording direct.

Based on the levels of parts in your mixed, it sounds like the only ones that are loud enough to be heard in the bounced track are the electric guitars, which are already compressed. I do think you need to compress the bass, lower the levels on the guitar, and raise the overall loudness of the mix. If you can't get your mix loud without clipping some individual tracks, you are having the same problem I did at first, and that I ahd to solve by using a compressor and limiter on the 2-bus (AKA stero bus, AKA master fader track).

If your master fader track is all the way up and the mix is not loud enough, then the only thing I know to do is to insert a compressor and brick wall limiter on the master fader track and adjust them to get the overall volume level of the mix up without clipping.

 

[Greg_L]

Yes, I am not very experienced yet. I appreciate getting feedback on what I think I've learned.

Maybe the need for a compressor and limiter on the 2-bus is kind of DAW specific. I didn't find I needed it until I switched from Logic to Pro Tools. I think Logic has a built in "finalizer" that multiband compresses and limits everything automatically, so I didn't know I needed to do it myself when I switched. But in pro tools, I could have ten parts with the faders all the way up near clipping, but barely be able to hear anything in the bounced track. I finally bought some courses and read articles in mix magazine and bought "pro tools for dummies" and talked to some people online and everbody agreed I have to put a compressor and brick wall limiter on the 2-bus. So that's what I do. Your DAW might be different. But people using other DAWs, like cubase, have told me they do it too. And people who don't compress vocals or bass much in the DAW tell me they are doing compression out front, before it goes into the DAW. Seems a lot of people do a both.

.

You're talking about something completely different than individual track compression. I doubt it's DAW specific. Master bus compression/limiting is good for getting loudness into a final bounced out mix. It also squashes the hell out of the mix. That's fine if it's what you want, but you shouldn't mix that way. I keep a limiter on my master bus, but it's turned off 99% of the time. I'll do my mix, and then turn on the limiter just to hear how it might sound "finished". Your raw mix probably shouldn't be so hot that you need a limiter on the master bus just to keep it from clipping during normal playback. This is very different than compressing individual tracks or parallel compression or side-chaining - with the latter two being pretty much unnecessary in a mix like this.

 

[Greg_L]

If you can't get your mix loud without clipping some individual tracks, you are having the same problem I did at first, and that I ahd to solve by using a compressor and limiter on the 2-bus (AKA stero bus, AKA master fader track).
.

This is the type of misinformation I'm talking about. You didn't solve anything. Stop worrying about loudness while mixing. If your raw mix is clipping, bring everything down until the master bus doesn't clip. Simple. That's mixing. Then when it's too "quiet", simply turn up your monitors/headphones and continue to mix at whatever volume you like. Then, when you get a decent mix going, you can add a limiter to the master track and bounce down through it for loudness.

 

[DogmaticVox]

I hope this is just a "I'm going to record this just for the sake of recording practice". If not, this was boring as hell. I'm not sure how long the song is because I fell asleep after a minute into it.

 

[tonesponge]

This is the type of misinformation I'm talking about. You didn't solve anything. Stop worrying about loudness while mixing. If your raw mix is clipping, bring everything down until the master bus doesn't clip. Simple. That's mixing. Then when it's too "quiet", simply turn up your monitors/headphones and continue to mix at whatever volume you like. Then, when you get a decent mix going, you can add a limiter to the master track and bounce down through it for loudness.

Yes. Everything you are saying is right. I don't think I was making myself understood well, but it was the loudness of the bounced mix that I was talking about. I had problems with my bounced mix being so soft that people couldn't even hear it well enough to evaluate it, and it took a frustratingly long time to figure out how to make it loud. I was just eager to pass this solution on to a fellow newb, expecially since I can't hear many of his tracks, leading me to think he is having the same issue.

 

[Greg_L]

I was just eager to pass this solution on to a fellow newb, expecially since I can't hear many of his tracks, leading me to think he is having the same issue.

You "not hearing many of his tracks" is because this is not a good mix. A good mix is a good mix regardless of volume. It has absolutely nothing to do with the overall loudness, which in this case is plenty loud enough to hear and evaluate. Putting a compressor/limiter on the master bus and setting it on kill isn't gonna fix a bad mix. It's just gonna make a bad mix louder, and sound even worse.

 

[PDP]

bounced mix being so soft that people couldn't even hear it well enough to evaluate it, .

When you say bounced, you mean your making a stereo wav file of your mix correct? If that wav file is low you can "normalize" it to 0db. It sounds strange you "have to" use a compressor to get a good volume. Loudness and fullness yes, but It doesnt sound right that your channels are so hot and you cant produce a simple mix file.