THD Hot Plate...???

[VESSEL2020]

So, use your amps at the settings that give you the tone you want, and mic them to the house PA. You will get 99% of the tone you like, and the sound man will become your friend. TRUST me, you WANT the sound man on your side- he has the power to make you sound terrific or horible, and there is no quicker way to piss him off than forcing him to contend with stupid-loud amps.

Yes,..I've learned the hard way at a very early age, (I believe 16)..
when I was yellin' to the soundman to put more guitar in the monitors,
and all he had goin through 'em was vocals. Funny thing is,..I paid him $35.00 for a recording straight from the board on a type II cassette back in '87 - '88....and you can hear me yellin' on the tape,.. "more guitar in the monitors,..please!" Tape came out EXCELLENT.
I know all too well how a soundman can make you or break you.
He is 50% of the show.

YOU will thank me in about 10-20 years, when you still have your hearing.

That was gone about 10-20 years ago!

 

[VESSEL2020]

Loosing saturation at higher volumes is almost impossible. As power tubes are pushed harder they will break up yielding a more saturated sound. all this doesn't sense at all when you take into consideration the physics of tube amps.

Not being a wise-ass...but,
Why does it sound impossible?...
It happens with all 3 amps,...The JSX being the least of the 3.
We have a VERY heavily saturated distorted crunchy sound that
we've been using since 1988. It's a combo of delay and distortion,
along with the tube distortion. It sounds killer on 2-3,..but when turned
up,..we loose some of the thickness in the saturation.
I do not have any of my music transfered to mp3 on my computer,
or I would upload a snippet, so you can hear how thick it actually is.
I will work on doing this,..and maybe someone can tell me (us), what we're doing wrong. We've had this sound for over 20 + years, and it only got heavier due to more modern sounding amps. I would just like to rectify
this problem in case, we do play again somewhere where there is NO
soundman, and we need to turn up more (usually outside).

The only thing that my 2 watt brain can think of is the power tubes might be weak and in need of replacement.

All new tubes in all 3 amps,..nothin wrong with any of 'em.

 

[Micter]

Not being a wise-ass...but,
Why does it sound impossible?...
It happens with all 3 amps,...The JSX being the least of the 3.
We have a VERY heavily saturated distorted crunchy sound that
we've been using since 1988. It's a combo of delay and distortion,
along with the tube distortion. It sounds killer on 2-3,..but when turned
up,..we loose some of the thickness in the saturation.
I do not have any of my music transfered to mp3 on my computer,
or I would upload a snippet, so you can hear how thick it actually is.
I will work on doing this,..and maybe someone can tell me (us), what we're doing wrong. We've had this sound for over 20 + years, and it only got heavier due to more modern sounding amps. I would just like to rectify
this problem in case, we do play again somewhere where there is NO
soundman, and we need to turn up more (usually outside).






All new tubes in all 3 amps,..nothin wrong with any of 'em.

I have a stock pile of tube amps. They ALL get more saturated as the volume gets turned up. The louder the thicker the tone. The technology is that the power tubes (power amp section) will amplify the pre amp section and further add distortion as the power tubes are pushed. I'm not saying you have to like the feel or tone of power tube breakup but tubes all work the same way when they are pushed in a guitar amp.

I understand the problem in that if my tone isn't the way I like it I cannot play up to my potential. I pretty much play the amp more than I play the guitar. If that makes sence?

 

[buzzard bass]

Not sure I'm getting this. You spend more for higher powered heads, then spend even more to neck the power down to the speakers. Huh?

 

[DrewPeterson7]

Not sure I'm getting this. You spend more for higher powered heads, then spend even more to neck the power down to the speakers. Huh?

No, we convinced him the Hot Plate wouldn't solve his problem, but instead would just make it happen at a lower volume. :lol:

Vessel - tube power amps are designed to saturate. I don't think anyone has designed one that stays clean all the way up to ten, it's just the nature of vacuum tubes.

I really think solid state is the answer here. Have you considered a tube pre (Mesa Rectifier or Triaxis pre, Engl pre, something like that) running into a very high wattange power amp? That's as close as you'll be able to get a tube amp sound out of a solid state rig. Or, do the EVH thing - take one of your amps, set it with the master volume at a level where you dig the sound, use something like a Palmer or dummy load to turn the speaker out into a line-level signal, and then run THAT into a pristine high wattage solid state power amp, and use that to drive your speakers?

 

[WhiteStrat]

I know exactly what the OP is talking about--and I think the misunderstanding in this thread is one of semantics. For the sake of discussion, let's call preamp gain "distortion" and power amp gain "overdrive."

Preamp distortion is more "buzzy" and more compressed (thus perhaps leading him to call it more "saturated"). Power amp overdrive is thicker, but more articulate (thus maybe sounding less "saturated" to the OP?)

Now the buzzy, preamp gain on a lot of amps is too fizzy and sizzly. I've got an amp who's preamp gain sucks until it gets a serious dose of power amp gain added to it.

But I've got another amp with killer preamp distortion. It sounds great with the gain on 8 and the volume on 1! All preamp "distortion" and no power amp "overdrive." It still sounds great when I crank it up, but it definitely sounds different. I often record leads on 1 just to get that smooth, compressed, preamp distortion.

I suspect that's what Vessel is dealing with. An amp with great preamp distortion that he's come to love, and thus is struggling with the more cutting, pronounced articulation of the power amp overdrive when he cranks it up.

If all of this is true, I'm wondering if you might try a distortion pedal and/or a compressor. When used with a cranked up amp, they may just add back that smoother sound of the preamp distortion.

 

[VESSEL2020]

I suspect that's what Vessel is dealing with. An amp with great preamp distortion that he's come to love, and thus is struggling with the more cutting, pronounced articulation of the power amp overdrive when he cranks it up.

EXACTLY!!!

That IS the sound we love! The sound of the little 12AX7's!!!
But when the amps get turned up,...we loose it.
Not as thick. This is why I've asked / inquired about the THD hot plate.

If all of this is true, I'm wondering if you might try a distortion pedal and/or a compressor. When used with a cranked up amp, they may just add back that smoother sound of the preamp distortion.

Tried this with several pedals (high-end pedals at that)...
But it adds so much more "unwanted gain",...seems as if there's no in-between.
Either add another distortion, or overdrive...and it gets TOO muddy,
or add nothin' and deal with the shitty break up of the gain.
Tried just adding a little,(both the comp. & dist.)..and it just does not seem to agree.

 

[WhiteStrat]

EXACTLY!!!

That IS the sound we love! The sound of the little 12AX7's!!!
But when the amps get turned up,...we loose it.
Not as thick. This is why I've asked / inquired about the THD hot plate.



Tried this with several pedals (high-end pedals at that)...
But it adds so much more "unwanted gain",...seems as if there's no in-between.
Either add another distortion, or overdrive...and it gets TOO muddy,
or add nothin' and deal with the shitty break up of the gain.
Tried just adding a little,(both the comp. & dist.)..and it just does not seem to agree.

Yep. I get it. A distortion pedal on an already really hot amp adds too much noise for my taste as well. But I can confirm what the others have told about hot plates & other attenuators--it's the exact opposite of what you're looking for. It'll take out of that preamp distortion and into the power amp drive at even lower volumes--definitely not what you want in this case.

 

[VESSEL2020]

. Have you considered a tube pre (Mesa Rectifier or Triaxis pre, Engl pre, something like that) running into a very high wattange power amp?

The Triaxis has been an option for a loooooooong time comin'!!!
Been keepin' an eye on 'em!!!

That's as close as you'll be able to get a tube amp sound out of a solid state rig. Or, do the EVH thing - take one of your amps, set it with the master volume at a level where you dig the sound, use something like a Palmer or dummy load to turn the speaker out into a line-level signal, and then run THAT into a pristine high wattage solid state power amp, and use that to drive your speakers?

???
Now that REALLY sounds like a GOOOOOOD idea!!!
Thanx!!!

 

[VESSEL2020]

Yep. I get it. A distortion pedal on an already really hot amp adds too much noise for my taste as well. But I can confirm what the others have told about hot plates & other attenuators--it's the exact opposite of what you're looking for. It'll take out of that preamp distortion and into the power amp drive at even lower volumes--definitely not what you want in this case.

That is EXACTLY what I wanted to hear!
THANK YOU!

Now what about this "SUCK knob" thing I've come across?
Heard of it?
I'll have to look it up again,..and post it here,
to get some opinions on it.

 

[WhiteStrat]

That is EXACTLY what I wanted to hear!
THANK YOU!

Now what about this "SUCK knob" thing I've come across?
Heard of it?
I'll have to look it up again,..and post it here,
to get some opinions on it.

If I recall correctly, the Suck Knob is just another attenuator--again the opposite of what you'd want. Given the fact that you're trying to keep your quiet sound, but at louder volumes, I don't think there's any gizmo that'll help. They're all designed to give you a louder sound at a lower volume.

So I think Drew's on the right track. You've get to get your amp right where you like it, then port that sound out to something bigger and louder--something solid state so you're not adding more tube drive, but rather just duplicating the same sound at a higher volume.

 

[mshilarious]

EXACTLY!!!

That IS the sound we love! The sound of the little 12AX7's!!!
But when the amps get turned up,...we loose it.
Not as thick. This is why I've asked / inquired about the THD hot plate.

Preamp sections (usually) run single-ended and power sections are often push-pull. Both the push-pull output as well as the transformer will distort symmetrically which generates odd-order distortion (vs. even-order for the preamp tubes). That is probably what you don't like.

Solutions:

- Hybrid amp (tube pre/SS power)

- Single-ended power stage (more expensive and less efficient).

- modified push-pull stage with some sort of offset between the sides or uneven DC in the transformer. That would require some expert design as the specifics are a bit beyond me.

 

[VESSEL2020]

Preamp sections (usually) run single-ended and power sections are often push-pull. Both the push-pull output as well as the transformer will distort symmetrically which generates odd-order distortion (vs. even-order for the preamp tubes). That is probably what you don't like.

Solutions:

- Hybrid amp (tube pre/SS power)

- Single-ended power stage (more expensive and less efficient).

- modified push-pull stage with some sort of offset between the sides or uneven DC in the transformer. That would require some expert design as the specifics are a bit beyond me.

Thanx for the tips!
Soooooo,...a Mesa Triaxis might just do the trick!??
It's a Hybrid preamp and should retain "our sound"...since we are already
using the Triple Recto.
or maybe a mod is in order...

MUCH Thanks to everyone who commented.
At least I didn't get my guitarist to shell out $200 +
for somethin' that would do just the opposite!

 

[DrewPeterson7]

Thanx for the tips!
Soooooo,...a Mesa Triaxis might just do the trick!??
It's a Hybrid preamp and should retain "our sound"...since we are already
using the Triple Recto.
or maybe a mod is in order...

Actually, the Triaxis pre is pure tube - no solid state clipping at all. And it might work for you, but it might not - it's more closely rooted to the Mesa Mark sound. If you dig the Triple Recto, I'd start with a Recto Recording Pre, if you can find it, first.

But yeah, if you like preamp distortion and don't want any power amp clipping, I think you're finally on the right track - a tube preamp coupled with the cleanest solid state power amp you can find will probably help.

 

[GONZO-X]

if you're up to the experiment, i'd suggest taking your best recording setup, and thru the attenuator, output at line level into a high powered solid state PA amp, and drive your cabinets with that.

add a decent full band eq, and you should be able to dial in your recorded level rig, at just about any volume level.

earlier, but ignored.....