PA Setup

[buballer38]

First off, thanks for helping a newbie out.

Second, I am vocals/keyboard for a amateur band. We are going to play at friends parties for around 50-75 people. We'll have Me, 2 guitarists, and drums. Since we won't be getting paid, I am looking for affordable options to complete our PA system. Here are the components I currently have-


Fender Passport PD-250
Ibanez SDR1000- stereo digital reverb
Mackie S215 Speakers
Electro-Voice 7300A powered amp


I plan on getting a mixer and running my mains to the EV to the Mackies. Then I'll run my Passport setup as monitors.

My local music store wants me to get a $400 Allen and Heath mixer (ZED-14), a $200 rack, Sennheiser 835's for vocals, and Sennheiser mics for the guitars and drums. The quote was for $1200+ and it would be awesome, but realistically it seems excessive.

-What would be a good inexpensive mixing board for us?
-What do you think of this set up so far?
-Do you think I should invest in a rack?

Thanks for the help.

 

[PRHunt]

If this is a one-off, could you hire some kit for the event, rather than rush a decision?

I'm not familiar with the gear that you list, so I can't comment.

Keep in mind that you will also need cables. I mention this, not to be smart, but because cabling can end up being a significant part of the budget.

Sorry, this doesn't address your question, but maybe gives something else to consider.

Good luck. Paul

 

[buballer38]

Thanks for the response. The cables were including in the quote but I didn't list them. I hadn't thought of renting equipment but I guess it is an option. I would prefer to buy because I'd like to own the equipment. Anyone know an inexpensive mixer that is solid quality?

 

[guido #2]

If it's a small, indoor, house party type gig, I'd concentrate on just putting the vocals thru the PA and just letting the band self regulate, volume wise.

How many mics will you need?
What's your REAL budget

So, I looked up your gear:
The pre-aux sends (for monitors) from the board you are going to buy can go into the L/R channel returns on the Fender, giving you two separate monitor mixes (using the Fender PA for just mons and the EV amp and Mackies for your mains)

This would be the cheapest way I can see.....

Maybe a small Mackie mixer

 

[Richard Monroe]

For the gig you are describing, what you are talking about is waay overkill. You don't need to mic the drums! OK- you have a small, but perfectly good 250 watt 4 channel PA, 2 passive 8 ohm speakers rated at 350 watts continuous, and a power amp that puts out 225 watts per channel into 8 ohms in dual mode, and 750 watts into 8 ohms in bridged mode.

Now, the PD250 says it has a "monitor" mode, but that is bogus, because it uses half of the power amp, and gives you only one 125 channel. That isn't enough, so...

Take a pair of RCA to 1/4" TS cables (get some good shielded patch cables, (They don't have to be very long) and go from the "tape out" on the PD250 to the power amp. Keep the power amp in dual mode, then from the left and right channels of the power amp to the Mackies. This will give you 4 channels in, and more power than you could possibly need. We're talking 75-100 people here. If the guitarist has at least a 50 watt amp and the bassist at least 200, there is no need to mic the amps. BTW, the Sennheiser e835 that was recommended is perfectly good. If you really need a monitor, turn one of the mackies around, and adjust the volume at the power amp. that would still give you both of the Passport's mains and one of the Mackies, which is a total continuous output of up to 475 watts just for vocals. For 100 people, that could cause pain, and I assure you, you'll have feedback long before you reach that level, especially if one of the Mackies is being used on the floor as a wedge monitor, If you don't have real guitar/bass amps, rent or borrow them, and then GET SOME AMPS. If you are going to be in a band, they are necessary!

Then all you need is one guy with good ears that you trust to match everybody's volume *to the drummer*! He's the one with no volume control!
I can tell you this- for forty years, bands played gigs like this without mic'ing up amps or drums, without in-ear monitors and wireless mics, and the world did not come to an end. I've seen big name bands perform quite well with less gear than you have right now, so buck up and go retro. All you need is some cables, a mic for each vocalist (hopefully not more than 4), mic stands, mic cables, 2 short patch cables, and a pair of speaker cables for the Mackies. The Mackies have 1/4" and speakon inputs, so I'd probably go 1/4" for now, to save money. And BTW, I own a PD250, and have *done* almost exactly what I just told you. Hope it helps. Good luck-Richie

 

[stevieb]

Richard Monroe just said everything I wanted to say, but 1) got to this thread 43 minutes after he did, and 2) am too tired to compose it. He's got it going on, do what he says.

 

[buballer38]

For the gig you are describing, what you are talking about is waay overkill. You don't need to mic the drums! OK- you have a small, but perfectly good 250 watt 4 channel PA, 2 passive 8 ohm speakers rated at 350 watts continuous, and a power amp that puts out 225 watts per channel into 8 ohms in dual mode, and 750 watts into 8 ohms in bridged mode.

Now, the PD250 says it has a "monitor" mode, but that is bogus, because it uses half of the power amp, and gives you only one 125 channel. That isn't enough, so...

Take a pair of RCA to 1/4" TS cables (get some good shielded patch cables, (They don't have to be very long) and go from the "tape out" on the PD250 to the power amp. Keep the power amp in dual mode, then from the left and right channels of the power amp to the Mackies. This will give you 4 channels in, and more power than you could possibly need. We're talking 75-100 people here. If the guitarist has at least a 50 watt amp and the bassist at least 200, there is no need to mic the amps. BTW, the Sennheiser e835 that was recommended is perfectly good. If you really need a monitor, turn one of the mackies around, and adjust the volume at the power amp. that would still give you both of the Passport's mains and one of the Mackies, which is a total continuous output of up to 475 watts just for vocals. For 100 people, that could cause pain, and I assure you, you'll have feedback long before you reach that level, especially if one of the Mackies is being used on the floor as a wedge monitor, If you don't have real guitar/bass amps, rent or borrow them, and then GET SOME AMPS. If you are going to be in a band, they are necessary!

Then all you need is one guy with good ears that you trust to match everybody's volume *to the drummer*! He's the one with no volume control!
I can tell you this- for forty years, bands played gigs like this without mic'ing up amps or drums, without in-ear monitors and wireless mics, and the world did not come to an end. I've seen big name bands perform quite well with less gear than you have right now, so buck up and go retro. All you need is some cables, a mic for each vocalist (hopefully not more than 4), mic stands, mic cables, 2 short patch cables, and a pair of speaker cables for the Mackies. The Mackies have 1/4" and speakon inputs, so I'd probably go 1/4" for now, to save money. And BTW, I own a PD250, and have *done* almost exactly what I just told you. Hope it helps. Good luck-Richie

Awesome insight. We should be set then- I'm gonna get my cables and vocal mics and get hooked up. Everyone else is set with their gear- just waiting on me. We'll have 3 vocal mics and my keyboard through the PA and that should be it. Thanks a ton- Ross

 

[Richard Monroe]

Just a few things- 1. Sorry, I forgot the keyboard. Yeah, you have enough power to run it through the PA, but if you know anybody who has an extra bass amp or an acoustic guitar amp, you could take some pressure off the PA. If not, go ahead and do it. 2.- Just use the reverb on the Passport. Patching in the other unit is unnecessary, and just makes things more complicated. There's nothing wrong with the reverb unit in the Passport. 3.- Make sure you set all of this stuff up for a practice session or two *before* the gig. It'll prove it can work, and give y'all a chance to get a handle on what everybody's settings have to be. That will shorten the sound check at the gig, and make you look like you have a clue. And you'll know if you're missing a cable or whatever. 4.- There's a little wiggle room built into the system if the power amp fails, a Mackie bites. or whatever, just run it into the Passport, crank the crap out of it, and make sure the drummer has a pair of light sticks. I've done gigs like that (without the keyboard) with 100 watts! If the Passport bites, you're pretty well screwed unless you have a small mixer with at least 4 channels in. In that case, you patch up your reverb unit (if the mixer doesn't have reverb), and go to the power amp from there, and then to the Mackies. Good luck-Richie

P.S.- I'm no engineer, but I've been jury-rigging rock n' roll equipment for 40 years.

 

[buballer38]

Thanks again, Richie!

I've ordered a Sennheiser 3-pack of e835's with cables and stands. Since I'm a newbie, I wanted to check with you on the patch cable before I ordered it.
Here's the one I'm looking at, will this work?

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Live-Wire-RCA-1-4--Dual-Patch-Cable-100227859-i1166752.gc

Here's the 2- banana to 1/4" I've ordered as well.

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Live-Wi...to-Banana-Speaker-Cable-100063496-i1165529.gc

Let me know if you can think of anything else- you've been a awesome resource of experience and knowledge.

 

[PRHunt]

A suggestion for mics

If budget is stretched (and even if not) have a look at the GLS Audio mics ES-58 and ES-57. These are unashamedly Shure SM-58 and SM-57 work-alikes.

However, they sell at about $30 each (and less in quantity). There are positive, bordering on rave, reviews all over the 'net about these mics sounding as goods as, if not better than, the "originals". They are also very solidly built.

You get them from here: http://www.speakerrepair.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=genem&Category_Code=microphones or from ebay.

(And, I promise, I am not a shill)

Good luck with the gig and beyond!

Paul

 

[buzzard bass]

Thanks for the heads up PR. Just ordered one of each for 30 bones a pop off Amazon. 80 bones for a trio. Let ya know what I think.

 

[Richard Monroe]

Yeah, as far as I know, those cables will work, but Live Wire is HOSA by any other name, and they are cheapies. Unfortunately, the cost of Monster and Mogami will give you sticker shock. Understand, there is some semi-educated guesswork going on here, but if I understand your power amp, you are with the program. As far as dirt-cheap stage mics go, my favorite is Behringer XM8500, a $20.00 AKG D880 knockoff. Going forward, though, I don't believe you will ever regret buying the Sennheisers. They are a solid piece of proven rock gear. Let me know how it works out. Of course, it always makes me a little nervous when people spend money based on my recommendations. I'm not clueless, but there really is a difference between saying, "Yeah, that's an OK piece of gear.", and saying, "Here's how to patch up some pieces of gear in a way the manufacturer never intended. Trust me." Of course, it is also dependent on every piece of gear working as it's supposed to. Power amps are notorious for blowing fuses, as an example, so make sure you have extras of any fuse it uses. The one piece of gear on the list I have complete confidence in is the Passport. It's small, but dead-ass reliable. Just make sure the speaker cables for the Passport's mains are where people can't walk on them. They are fragile.

Also remember that the tape outs on the Passport will not give you any volume control for the Mackies. You have to get that from the power amp. I use the Passport in 2 capacities, mostly. First, it's my PA for acoustic solo gigs, and I run the guitar through it also, either a Taylor with a Fishman Prefix Plus, or an electric from a Behringer VAMP 2 modeler. Then I take the tape out and run it to a power amp to a wedge monitor, and that's how I get my monitor, just as I suggested to you. That's why I know it will work. When I play acoustic with a band, the Passport becomes my acoustic guitar amp. It's just a matter of perspective. While as a 250 watt main PA, it's pretty wussy, as a 250 watt acoustic guitar amp, it has serious balls. I'm assuming you use it as a keyboard amp, and you already know it will do that.-Richie

 

[stevieb]

I would NEVER buy Monster brand cables. 1) They are grossly overpriced, and the company that makes them is chock full of assholes. 2) They send nasty-lawyer letters to anyone who uses the work "Monster" in their company name, even though there is no legal basis for that, and even when the other company is engaged in an entirely different business and is not infringing on anybody's trademark. 3) GuiTarget employees only recommend them because Monster gives them spifs for selling them, NOT because it has been demonstrated that they are better. 4) Their warranty is no better than anybody else's, but their prices are much higher.

 

[moresound]

I would NEVER buy Monster brand cables. 1) They are grossly overpriced, and the company that makes them is chock full of assholes. 2) They send nasty-lawyer letters to anyone who uses the work "Monster" in their company name, even though there is no legal basis for that, and even when the other company is engaged in an entirely different business and is not infringing on anybody's trademark. 3) GuiTarget employees only recommend them because Monster gives them spifs for selling them, NOT because it has been demonstrated that they are better. 4) Their warranty is no better than anybody else's, but their prices are much higher.

This and many other reasons to just make your own cabling!

 

[suprstar]

lol @ mic'ing all that shit up for a little parties!! That's so overkill, he's obviously going for a big sale.. You need ONE mic per vocalist, nothing more. A&H are really nice mixers, but you can do a lot cheaper if you want to. A $100 mixer would suffice, get one with integrated fx and you won't even need the ibanez. You do not need usb - if you're only running the vox thru it anyway you won't be picking up the whole band to record. You can get Shure PG-58's for like $40 ea. (For me, I prefer cheap mics for live use, they tend to get abused, knocked over, spilled on, etc....)

Your EV amp into the mackies will be great for mains. Passport for monitors, sure that'll work, prolly the weak link in your setup, but still do-able. What else you need?? That's a 1/2 way decent setup imo, you can get over the drums easy with that, as long as the guitar amps can hang. You just gotta fill in a couple little gaps. A couple hundred bucks and you could be set.

If you want to splurge a little, a nicer board and better mics are great, but not necessary. I've played tons of live gigs on a lot less than that.

 

[buballer38]

While as a 250 watt main PA, it's pretty wussy, as a 250 watt acoustic guitar amp, it has serious balls. I'm assuming you use it as a keyboard amp, and you already know it will do that.-Richie

Thanks again for the info. I 've also used the passport for years with great success in a similar way. I chose the passport for simplicity because I had no audio background (and still don't have an audio background).

 

[buballer38]

lol @ mic'ing all that shit up for a little parties!! That's so overkill, he's obviously going for a big sale.. You need ONE mic per vocalist, nothing more. A&H are really nice mixers, but you can do a lot cheaper if you want to. A $100 mixer would suffice, get one with integrated fx and you won't even need the ibanez. You do not need usb - if you're only running the vox thru it anyway you won't be picking up the whole band to record. You can get Shure PG-58's for like $40 ea. (For me, I prefer cheap mics for live use, they tend to get abused, knocked over, spilled on, etc....)

Your EV amp into the mackies will be great for mains. Passport for monitors, sure that'll work, prolly the weak link in your setup, but still do-able. What else you need?? That's a 1/2 way decent setup imo, you can get over the drums easy with that, as long as the guitar amps can hang. You just gotta fill in a couple little gaps. A couple hundred bucks and you could be set.

If you want to splurge a little, a nicer board and better mics are great, but not necessary. I've played tons of live gigs on a lot less than that.

The guitar amps will hang with our setup. The drums and guitars are pretty balanced right now in our current setup, but I was still getting upsold that we NEED to run it all thourgh the PA. Glad to hear from guys with different opinions.

If I were to get a mixer, any advice on which mixer would be suitable? If the Ibanez is unnecessary, I'll sell it and free up $'s to get a mixer.

 

[dintymoore]

I tried the Passport and it didn't sound good enough to me.

Forget putting your keyboard through the pa only - you need your own amp just a few feet from your head like a violinist is my approach. I play keys and sing and going through the pa has always sucked, sucked, sucked!

What you hear most is the speakers. I would avoid anything in a plastic box unless you are going for a "plastic box" type of sound!

Here's what I got for $800 for small gigs and parties, I've modified it since but even stock it had what I'd call an acceptable "pro" sound:

Behringer PMX2000 all-in-one pa - actually sounds good although every channel sounds different!

pair of JBL 1 12" + horn speakers (don't have the number) in heavy wood (MDF) boxes.

2 Ultimate Support speaker stands

I'd avoid cheap speakers from any of the "crappy" companies like Behringer etc..., for a pa head their stuff is ok, but the speaker and mics are the transducers and transducers, live or in the studio, always matter way more that what's between them.

But the keyboard going through the pa never has worked for me, although theoretically it could, it just never has for me. I have a Behringer KX1200 keyboard amp. You need your own voice like a violinist in an orchestra, right by your head. It's an acoustic principle that you hear your sound louder and sooner in the mix than it should actually be in the final mix so you can fix mistakes before they get out there. The same as movies are edited with better gear than you see them on in the end.

 

[suprstar]

How much do you want to spend, and how many channels do you need? Just a couple? I'd start looking at something like these:

4 mic channels, more line-in's for keyboards, cd players, whatever. And FX, $109.
http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/Behringer-XENYX-1202FX-Mixer?sku=631267

Here's a yamaha version - same basic thing, plus a compressor on 2 channels. I had a similar yamaha mixer for years, it was a great piece.. $159:
http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/Yamaha-MG82CX-Mixer-With-Effects?sku=630139

Soundcraft, never owned one, but they get rave reviews on their preamps and eq, $179:
http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/Soundcraft-Notepad-124FX-Mixer-with-Effects?sku=430567

 

[Lt. Bob]

for cheap mixers that sound good the Peavey PV series are pretty cool.
I have a PV10 that I use on small gigs and it sounds great.

http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/Peavey-PV10-Mixer?sku=631368

They have smaller ones depending on how many channels you need.