mic hiss

  • Thread starter Thread starter timtimtim
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With film (video), it's more about the illusion as most are more familiar with the illusion than reality. So sounding natural for all intents is an illusion, and not how it actually sounds. i.e. Drawing attention to the story, and not the distractions. In the studio you generally have one mic per sound source. Out and about, you might have a lavalier, boom mic, shotgun on the camcorder and perhaps a stereo pair near by to capture the ambiance. Even with only ONE subject matter. And mix to taste. Or synthesize the whole thing in post if needed. You are for all practical purposes telling a story, not recording an event. Treating it like an event can reduce the post production, but may be not produce the ideal result. Compromises abound. Time versus budget versus skills versus the world...[/QUOTE]

Actualy you've touched on one point I'm really undecided about - whether to do all dialogue in mono or stereo. I had decided to forget stereo and do it in mono because trying to think about stereo positioning while filming is going to make it all so unbelievably complicated, and also those films I've seen with stereo dialogue have been totaly unconvincing because the voice never appears to come from the actor who's speaking, but from far too far to the left or right because you can't recreate a real stereo world with just 2 speakers, or even with surround sound or anything else, you'd have to have tens of speakers closely spaced each with its own unique soundtrack created by some incredibly complex computer analysis of the output of two microphones fixed either side of a dummy human head, and now I'm starting to ramble cos I'm so tired so I must go to bed.
 
You want stereo. The minor differences in timing and balance allow the brain to focus in on a sound (voice) in an otherwise noisy environment (or noisy mics). It's a brain thing. Not that you have to record in stereo, but you want some spacial reference in there. Otherwise good audio might come off as that McDonalds drive through ordering mono speaker thing.

I've been doing stereo captures long enough that listening to mono samples of microphones in use can be very ODD to me. With stereo, is the person 3" or 3' away, and you can give an educated guess. With mono, are they 3" or 3', I haven't a clue. Now for a talking head in a quiet room, mono is just fine. Two or more sources and mono might sound cheap. In terms of selling a product that might translate quite a bit in the asking price. Not that you "need" stereo for a podcast or taping a teachers lecture. But for at least the ambiance you want the car to move, not rev it's engine, as it would sound in mono.
 
Shadow_7 said:
You want stereo. The minor differences in timing and balance allow the brain to focus in on a sound (voice) in an otherwise noisy environment (or noisy mics). It's a brain thing. Not that you have to record in stereo, but you want some spacial reference in there. Otherwise good audio might come off as that McDonalds drive through ordering mono speaker thing.

I've been doing stereo captures long enough that listening to mono samples of microphones in use can be very ODD to me. With stereo, is the person 3" or 3' away, and you can give an educated guess. With mono, are they 3" or 3', I haven't a clue. Now for a talking head in a quiet room, mono is just fine. Two or more sources and mono might sound cheap. In terms of selling a product that might translate quite a bit in the asking price. Not that you "need" stereo for a podcast or taping a teachers lecture. But for at least the ambiance you want the car to move, not rev it's engine, as it would sound in mono.
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Well do you use 2 mics spaced as far apart as the human ears, because otherwise you won't get the correct timing difference? Stereo mics I've seen seem to have the 2 mics too close together. And what about switching from distance shot, to close-up, to over one actors shoulder, to over the other actors shoulder? Do you keep changing the sound image to match the picture at that moment, which would be really confusing?

This microphone business is like everything else in life, the more you get into it, the more complicated it gets. I was really hoping I could get away with buying just one good mic. I'd set my sights on AT3032 or AT4022, but now its looking like I'll have to buy two of those PLUS two cardoid mics PLUS who knows what else!
 
Or just rent it when you need it. Depending on how frequently you'll be recording.

Ever been in a noisy bar? Trying to talk to your neighbor and having to shout and just barely getting the content across. You can't tell an effective story like that. Your viewers aren't going to strain themselves to make out the words, they'll just change the channel instead.

There's techniques, XY, ORTF, NOS that correspond to a distance between mics (0cm, 17cm, 30cm) And/or a mic directionality. MS, Blumlein, double MS, tetrahedral and other means to capture and reproduce an environment.

You'll basically be tailoring your audio to match the viewers system. If they're on a 3D HDTV with 7.1 surround sound, shouldn't you be too? Shouldn't you be capturing content to match? Even CDs are stereo (2 channels). Mostly gone are the days of 480i60 and MONO audio. Some cell phones have capture abilities greater than that now(not to imply good ability). You might start by checking out the entry requirements for your local film festivals. And take that as the minimum standard. Making a CD is almost easy in comparison. Making a DVD is almost brain dead simple these days. With the right tools.

If you want to simplify things, a Shure VP88 might help. A Rode NT4, and other pre-made stereo mics in a single form factor.
 
I take what you say about the noisy bar, though having said that I saw a film once where a guy was chatting up a girl in a disco, and they were just chatting in relaxed voices at a distance from each other, and it looked totaly unrealistic because they SHOULD have been shouting in each other's ears!

In your previous post you said "not that you have to record in stereo". Please explain. I was thinking of having the dialogue in mono, but maybe other sounds like cars, and of course music, in stereo.

I'd be grateful if you'd point me towards some links for XY, ORTF, NOS, etc. I read Harvey Gerst's description of the M/S technique using a ribbon and a dynamic - fascinating.

I looked up those mics: VP88 is a bit noisy but Rode NT4 looks good. How would it sound alongside AT3032 or AT4022?
 
Film dialogue is generally not recorded in stereo. Each actor will have a spot on them, usually a shotgun overhead, sometimes a lapel hidden somewhere, sometimes both. The normal procedure is all dialogue center channel (mono for a stereo mix). Some wide shots might be slightly panned, but never as wide as an actual stereo recording of the scene would be. Ambience and some effects are recorded in stereo, and of course incidental music is in stereo or surround. All of those sources are mixed together to produce the 5.1 final mix.

Good source for stereo recording techniques:

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/Microphone-University/StereoTechniques.aspx

In fact just read the whole DPA Microphone University site, it is excellent.
 
mshilarious said:
Film dialogue is generally not recorded in stereo. Each actor will have a spot on them, usually a shotgun overhead, sometimes a lapel hidden somewhere, sometimes both. The normal procedure is all dialogue center channel (mono for a stereo mix). Some wide shots might be slightly panned, but never as wide as an actual stereo recording of the scene would be. Ambience and some effects are recorded in stereo, and of course incidental music is in stereo or surround. All of those sources are mixed together to produce the 5.1 final mix.

Good source for stereo recording techniques:

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/Microphone-University/StereoTechniques.aspx

In fact just read the whole DPA Microphone University site, it is excellent.
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I've just read all those stereo techniques at that site. Very interesting. Binaural is the only true stereo, but of course you need phones for it to work . I suppose ORTF is the nearest to binaural if it's coming through speakers? But aren't those subtle timing differences lost if you're not sitting exactly equidistant from both speakers?

I'm glad I can record dialogue in mono, it would have been so difficult otherwise. And maybe add a little stereo ambience later. But I don't know if I want to buy a stereo mic purely for ambience, it seems a bit extravagent. Maybe I'll use the camcorder mics for ambience, with a baffle inbetween them to give separation. Or better still I could use an AT3032 and my old mic in ORTF configuration for ambience? No but they are not cardoid. Ah well
 
ORTF is meant for that zone between a set and a live audience (facing the set). i.e. Proximity. There is some play in the configuration to suit the end result. You just can't call it ORFT once get past cardioid and 110 degrees and 17cm. I use two OMNI mics parallel at 17cm with decent results. Hardly a wide stereo image, but enough of a timing difference to be different from mono. While still having the mic element facing a distant source.

When you over dub in a studio, it's MONO. You just place the results in an image in post. Person on Left (90% gain in left / 30% gain in right) and other mix to taste efforts. Not real stereo, but a sound in a space relative to a fixed space (dead center). And various synthesis abilities to place an otherwise sterile sound (mono) in an acoustic space. See some of the efforts in the OpenOctave project. It really depends on your skill level, tech savvy-ness and time alloted to post production. And other means to shift the image based on frequency ranges between Left and Right for a given capture. The more edits, the less real IMO. But there's some pretty good software out there these days. It's all 1's and 0's from a digital perspective.
 
OK I think I've learned enough about mics to last me for a while. The next thing is to buy a mic, then switch to creative mode and get on with this film. Thank you all for your valuable help. Tim
 
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