Recapping Mixer

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SteveM

SteveM

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My M35 must be about 30-35 years old. I've considered recapping it and actually did one channel. Took about 20 mins. I didn't really notice any difference, but hard to say. It sounds pretty good anyway. I was just wondering what anyone knows or thought about this. Is it a good idea or evennecessary? I was hoping maybe I'd get some sharper eq-ing and maybe some more punch if I did it.

Also if anyone has any other upgrade tips, I'd like to hear them.
 
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What did you recap it with?
Seams to me that the older caps may even be superior to the new ones....just a thought.






:cool:
 
What did you recap it with?
Seams to me that the older caps may even be superior to the new ones....just a thought.






:cool:

Newer caps (depending on the brand and quality of course) will typically be better than old caps...lower ESR which means, in part, they have better bandwidth. Can you hear the difference? Dunno...depends.

SteveM, always-always-always start your recap job with the PSU. Typically you'll get the greatest impact for the time spent there and its cheap insurance for everything downstream. If there's a bad filter cap you may take care of some self noise too. Upgrading IC regulators is another good-cheap-quick way to possible lower noise.

If you want to get into EQ tuning thats wayyyy over my head and typically doesn't involve the 'lytics you replace in a recap...you've seen the bad caps page over at analogrules.com right? If they look like that, replace them. If you are getting crackles and there's no amount of cleaning that seems to fix it (i.e. pots or faders) then maybe (in the case of a mic pre) it could be a bad coupling cap.

I recap for the insurance of it. If I gain something else then that's great. If it was my M-35 I'd be recapping the PSU at least.

I'm sure there are ways to upgrade the M-35 strips but its not a matter of throwing bigger caps at it or anything...bypassing coupling caps with a small value film cap is something that seems relatively common...and cap cans have shrunk while the quality has increased so you can fit a larger value cap in a stock location but you can screw things up doing that too...an electrolytic cap is a compromise...it doesn't pass HF signal as well as film caps do but film caps are limited in value. There are calculations to be made that take the entire signal path into consideration which is too big for me by a long shot, so I typically replace with caps of the same value and voltage unless there is a known upgrade or something obvious that is wrong with the stock value.
 
Great informative post Corey. I've done many recaps on other stuff, so without seeing the page you mentioned I know what bad caps look like. I just know, or have heard that after 30 years caps are only operating at about half their value. Otherwise the whole board sounds fine really. But maybe I will start with the PSU. Thanks for the reply.
 
Cory's advice is very, very good.

Replace the lytics. They age and they leak and they create plenty of noise especially in the P/S..

Bypass them all w/.01 polypropylene caps (even P/S caps), and you'll have a sweet unit.

Loudspeaker makers would use lytics because they were cheap but they were not musical! They were harsh, and when they aged oh my!

Do it do it do it!!!
 
Cory's advice is very, very good.

Replace the lytics. They age and they leak and they create plenty of noise especially in the P/S..

Bypass them all w/.01 polypropylene caps (even P/S caps), and you'll have a sweet unit.

Loudspeaker makers would use lytics because they were cheap but they were not musical! They were harsh, and when they aged oh my!

Do it do it do it!!!

When you say "bypass" you don't mean simply swap them out with polypropylene caps, you mean something else?

I'd like to look into this. If it's worth the cost.
 
"Bypass" means adding a component in parallel with the existing component. Note that research has shown that small-value film caps in parallel with electrolytic caps do not result in a reduction in distortion. If the electros are signal-path, you will get a larger benefit by replacing them with nonpolar (bipolar) electros.
 
You "parallel" the lytic on the bottom side such as done in the enclosed photo.

I am sure your budget is not sufficient to warrant replacing the lytics with equal value film caps!!!
 

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Ok, now I have two opposing opinions to contend with. :D Thanks for the pic GCalo. I see. So you do them all with .01 mFd caps? Even the power supply?

I'm not opposed to MS's idea either, if it's a good improvement and worth the cost. I may not even be so concerned about cost because I'm dorky enough to enjoy doing it anyway. Just want it to be worth it, soundwise.

So you can replace with non polar caps of same value??

And possibly just replace the same caps in the power supply???
 
Everything with .01 mfd.

In P/S you can go to higher cap values. For a 2,200 you can go to 3,300 or 4,800 . Just check sizing and you should be OK. Replace all P/S caps though.
 
Well, there certainly is a lot of info out there on this subject..... in every direction. :confused:

I think I'm going to pass on the bypassing. It seems there is some disagreement on whether it's an improvement. :confused:

I considered getting the Nichon "audio" capacitors but the values are limited. Anyway, I'm at least going to get the PSU caps and do that for starters. May just have to take my time on this and research.
 
Lytics are not "musical". They are harsh.

The PP bypass filters the lytic and smooths the audio portion.

No confusion. Has been done for years in loudspeaker crossovers.

Just systematically do it and you will be pleased.
 
Recapping...

The humble capacitors are used in different ways in various parts of the circuit... in the power supply, there are typically large capacitors... These would typically be "ripple capacitors", and for these there is no replacement for displacement, lol, bigger is better. Available size constraints and $$$ are the only reasons to not go bigger in value here.

You likely already know, but, be CAREFUL around big power supply capacitors. They hold a lethal charge for an amazing amount of time aftre the power is off if they are not "bled".



caps on the channels are being used as frequency filters. Common filters at AF (audio frequencies) are high pass, low pass, and band pass.


it is standard electronics 101, that resistors sum in series, and caps sum in parallel. By this I mean...

1) You need a 2k resistor, but you only have 2 1k resistors... those 2 1k resistors in series are electronically equivalent to a single 2k resistor.

2) likewise, you need a 100pf cap... but you only have 2 50pf caps... hook them up in parallel and its the same as a single 100pf cap.

replacing/upgrading opamps is another way to upgrade quality on older boards. The nice thing about using top notch components, is that you could do one or a couple strips at a time,label them, and use them for more critical lines (vocals or lead instruments)

as far as electronic engineering goes, to an EE guy mixing boards are not terrible complex electronic devices, in theory. i say "in theory" because without a circuit diagram, devices can be hard to trace around in without experience.

I've never heard anyone discuss shielding in boards, but, I know one difference between a low end guitar and a high end one can be SHIELDING, and the simpl addition of some copper foil in teh appropriate places/cavities, ran to ground, can quiet things considerably.

if you dont mind the LOOK, and value function over form... consider making the power supply REMOTE, and shielding the filtered lines in. This would also allow for considerably tighter +V voltage regulation by increasing the ripple capacitors, and possibly allowing better heat dissipation. NOTE: on the big ripple capacitors where bigger is always better... off board would allow you to put several or many smaller ones in, by having the extra space.

in general. HEAT is the enemy of electronic devices, although some cases are designed to heat up to stabilize the unit operating characteristics.
 
You can go w/higher voltages. I always do.

I can't find much in the way of .01 "polypropylene" capacitors. Are there any other type of film capacitors you can use? The ones I'm finding have really high voltage ratings. I've been looking on Mouser and Digikey and locally.
 
I've used these whenever I've done bypassing in the past. I've only ever bypassed the power inputs of opamps before to avoid osicllation as well as a directed bypassing of a main filter cap in a 39V regulated Ampex power supply.

There are other things at play in bypassing which has led me away from making it a blanket practice. GCalo and I have been dialoging about this offline and I don't have the same background experience as he has so its not as comfortable for me because I get hung up in issues like the biasing (not tape machine bias but signal bias in the power path), ESR and such...there are just other things at play. There's a little discussion on it in this thread where I was working on the mods and upgrades for my Soundtracs MX power supply. I suggest you look at it because it was an eye opener for me as to a bigger world of things at play that highlight the mass interdependence of components in a circuit and how each component doesn't live on an island, and also how, depending on the architecture and type of system, certain mods or specs or issues just may not be as relevant..."say man, that blender in your Chevy is really...something..."

MY bottom line is that I've gotten more into the mindset that when it comes to modding I just simply don't have the understanding and knowledge to really assess what is a worthwhile or necessary mod NOR the ability to really test the mods to see if they were effective or possibly even detrimental. Its all WAY over my head. So I that's why I tend to stick to replacing eletrolytic caps with like values. I guess I'm conservative. There are exceptions of course, and I'm comfortable enough where I can identify a cap that would benefit from an increase in voltage (for instance a 50V cap in the path of a 48V phantom supply is too close for my comfort), and yes it doesn't seem to be a bad idea to increase the value of supply filter caps but I'm careful to ask so I can confirm which ones are the filter caps and so on. When recapping 20, 25, 30+ year old gear you can generally assume that the caps you put in will have better bandwidth performance, and being able to replace with higher temp caps is a nice insurance policy too. So there are potential sum gains in just replacing like values with like values. Where I have incresed the capacitance I have done so on specific instruction from somebody I really trust, and it always seems to boil down a pattern for me that there really aren't any blanket givens in upgrading electronics, except for going with higher temp caps than 85C when able, especially in power supplies. If there are other blankets then I'd like to know what those are.

So that's my 2p, and take it with the grain of salt that I'm conservative on this...some of that comes from people I respect telling me "why are you messing with it?" I've gone through a phase where I just gutted stuff...I remember the point when I'd pulled all these caps off of a Tascam PCB and just for poops and giggles checked to see how far they'd drifted in value...every one of them...every single one of them was a 20% cap and was within 10% of spec...that was out of a 25 year old unit. Now the ESR may have been way off...that I don't know because I don't have an ESR meter and I'm pretty sure the Nichicon KT series caps I put in were cleaner, had lower ESR and better bandwidth, and I knew after replacing them I didn't have to worry about the caps going bad in the next years, but it certainly made me stop for a second and think "what am I doing?"

Power supplies are a different story. I just think its a good idea to recap those after 20, 25+ years as an insurance policy and you never know what might be helped. That supply literally feeds everything in the unit...garbage in, garbage out and unless you have a way to analyze the ripple in the rails then why not replace the caps? Most supplies only have a few caps in them anyway...even larger multirail supplies may have just a dozen or so. Recapping is a good way to get your feet wet because its not a big project, there may be immediate gains, many of the caps are bigger and just easier to handle first time out rather than being these little pellets, and many times the supply PCB is easier to get to than some other things.

Bad caps in the audio path tend to result in crackles and pops. Bad resistors tend to result in more hiss and "thermal noise", but when I recapped the supply for my Tascam M-520 there was an immediate and very noticeable drop in the noise floor, the "hiss", in the mixer. Maybe one of the filter caps was going bad and that was driving the rectifiers nuts...I don't know.

And not all supplies are created equal. I thought for sure that there'd be ripple issues in the 40 year old supplies in my Ampex MM-1000...I have a 50MHz analog Tek scope and I couldn't see anything except environmental "noise" when zoomed all the way in...very clean...stock and 40 years old. Will I recap them anyway? Sure but its not a huge priority at the moment.

Now, that's all I'm going to vomit at the moment and as I try to emphasize here and there I'm a hobbyist...I have no formal education pertinent to electronics...the worst thing that could happen with the above is somebody takes it and goes "well this guy said blahblahblah so that's the TRUTH!!! :mad: Take what works and throw out the rest. These are the epitome of opinions I've expressed here. Do your own research. Ask questions. Learn. Experience. Find good people to mentor you. Have fun.

I considered getting the Nichon "audio" capacitors but the values are limited. Anyway, I'm at least going to get the PSU caps and do that for starters. May just have to take my time on this and research.

Steve, which series of caps were you looking at? I use the KT series. They're light blue in color, 105C caps that are "Audio Grade" for whatever that's worth. I just like the idea that they were designed (or are at least marketed heheh) with audio in mind and they are hi temp, come in lots of values and are affordable. A good balance/blend for me and Mouser carries them. They aren't the "MUSE" caps that people rave about, but those are 85C caps anyway...I DO use the MUSE caps for bipolar audio path stuff...those are the ES series and are indeed more limited in the values available. I tend to use the PW series for non-audio path stuff and in the power supplies...VZ series if I can't find the right value in a PW...bigger stuff or Axial stuff I'll tend to use Cornell-Dublier or Vishay caps...really big stuff I like the Mallory computer grade caps...

If the electros are signal-path, you will get a larger benefit by replacing them with nonpolar (bipolar) electros.

Oh Msh I wish I wish I wish I could sit down with you with a schematic from a typical Tascam mixer strip and circle the polar caps that could be replaced with non-polar. I think I understand what you are saying but I always thought polar had to be replaced with polar, non-polar witrh non-polar; that the reason a certain type was selected was because that's what was needed...why wouldn't "they" put a non-polar cap in instead of a polar cap at the design stage if there would be a benefit? It seems too easy in a way...
 
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