recording metal guitar tracks...

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hi, i'm just getting into recording and i was looking for some suggestions on how to record my guitar. I'm using a audio kontrol 1 sound module going via usb 2.0 into a 2.66ghz quadcore imac. I've got Logic 9 pro for my daw and i'd like to use guitar rig 4. I understand how to record a track, but what i'd like to know is, should i record my tracks with my guitar signal effected with guitar rig or should i record the guitar clean and add distortion and reverb later? Also, in what order should compression and gates and all that stuff be in the signal chain?

Any advice would be great.

Jeff.
 
You wanna record with the simulation on the track.

You want to know the response of the the specific emulation your using.

You don't wanna record something expecting it to sound a certain way when you put the sim on and realize that the sim is responding way differently than what you expected cause guess what... you'll have to re-record that track :(
 
You wanna record with the simulation on the track.

You want to know the response of the the specific emulation your using.

You don't wanna record something expecting it to sound a certain way when you put the sim on and realize that the sim is responding way differently than what you expected cause guess what... you'll have to re-record that track :(

This gave me a chuckle KOP. :D





:cool:
 
There are a whole bunch of ways to do this... I went through a hell of a process figuring out exactly the way I feel is "right" with my equipment for the types of projects I'm working on.

The very first thing I did, was work with my guitar itself. I did this with my Boss GT-10 pedal because I wanted this part for live performances as well, but the process drastically improved the quality of my guitar. I plugged the guitar into my pedal and listened clean. Then I took note of what I liked and didn't with that clean signal, and EQ'ed it to my liking (at this point, mostly just removing "bad" qualities). Then I added my Marshall amp and dialed that in to something close to what I like, without the use of the EQ above. Then I A/B'ed the EQ to see if that was actually helping or not, post amplifier. Then I added another equalizer after the amplification to address other "bad" qualities that arose from that. Then I moved my equalizers around so both were before or both were after the amp, both on either side of the amp, and then with both of them off. I really tried to figure out how to make my guitar sound as good as I could with my live rig before I went anywhere near the recording equipment. This process took days before I finally settled on some stuff.

After I dialed in my base "sound", I went on to just play with every other effect I use or thought I might want to use, and I put them all over the effects chain to figure out what each thing was capable of in various areas of the chain. The biggest difference seems to come from pre/post amplifier effects, in my experience. For a quick example, hook up a wah pedal before your amp, and then in your send/return loop (so it happens after the preamp does its magic)...the wah behaves quite differently.

Just as an example, my effects chain looks something like this...
Guitar -> EQ -> Compressor -> Wah -> Amp -> Gate (just to kill amp hiss after amplification) -> EQ -> Chorus -> Flanger -> Volume Pedal -> Delay -> Reverb

Only after doing all of that, did I start recording. Once I got that all squared away, I decided that it was best for me to record my guitar completely clean, straight into the computer. This way, I could focus on the performance, I could hear any mistakes easily, and I can take that clean signal and plug it into my guitar rig to record the actual "guitar sound" I want. It may seem like extra work, but in the long run it can save a good deal of time if the performance is perfect, but you want to just change a few settings with your amp or your effects. If you record with the effects applied already, you're stuck with them. Not necessarily a bad thing, but not all that great if you're unsure of your guitar sound.

There are some general guidelines and standards, but no "right" answer (as you'll hear a lot around here). Look up anything about guitar effects chains and you'll get several schools of thought...all interesting, but not all applicable to all situations either. You could also try asking in the guitar forum about effects ordering, I'd bet.

Hope that helps!
 
I know that this isn't going to be a very popular option for a lot of people around here but here it goes.

I've got a Line6 X3 Live, It's got a USB connection that allows you to connect and record direct to your computer. I've never had any suprises recording this way, the recording always sounds exaclty like what you here when you play. I've never tried it before but it also comes with a plug-in that has all the FX that the pedal comes with so I'm sure that you could record clean and and use the plug-in.

I think a huge advantage to recording this way is that there isn't any a/d d/a conversion. Just the guitar to the pedal.
 
There are a whole bunch of ways to do this... I went through a hell of a process figuring out exactly the way I feel is "right" with my equipment for the types of projects I'm working on.

The very first thing I did, was work with my guitar itself. I did this with my Boss GT-10 pedal because I wanted this part for live performances as well, but the process drastically improved the quality of my guitar. I plugged the guitar into my pedal and listened clean. Then I took note of what I liked and didn't with that clean signal, and EQ'ed it to my liking (at this point, mostly just removing "bad" qualities). Then I added my Marshall amp and dialed that in to something close to what I like, without the use of the EQ above. Then I A/B'ed the EQ to see if that was actually helping or not, post amplifier. Then I added another equalizer after the amplification to address other "bad" qualities that arose from that. Then I moved my equalizers around so both were before or both were after the amp, both on either side of the amp, and then with both of them off. I really tried to figure out how to make my guitar sound as good as I could with my live rig before I went anywhere near the recording equipment. This process took days before I finally settled on some stuff.

After I dialed in my base "sound", I went on to just play with every other effect I use or thought I might want to use, and I put them all over the effects chain to figure out what each thing was capable of in various areas of the chain. The biggest difference seems to come from pre/post amplifier effects, in my experience. For a quick example, hook up a wah pedal before your amp, and then in your send/return loop (so it happens after the preamp does its magic)...the wah behaves quite differently.

Just as an example, my effects chain looks something like this...
Guitar -> EQ -> Compressor -> Wah -> Amp -> Gate (just to kill amp hiss after amplification) -> EQ -> Chorus -> Flanger -> Volume Pedal -> Delay -> Reverb

Only after doing all of that, did I start recording. Once I got that all squared away, I decided that it was best for me to record my guitar completely clean, straight into the computer. This way, I could focus on the performance, I could hear any mistakes easily, and I can take that clean signal and plug it into my guitar rig to record the actual "guitar sound" I want. It may seem like extra work, but in the long run it can save a good deal of time if the performance is perfect, but you want to just change a few settings with your amp or your effects. If you record with the effects applied already, you're stuck with them. Not necessarily a bad thing, but not all that great if you're unsure of your guitar sound.

There are some general guidelines and standards, but no "right" answer (as you'll hear a lot around here). Look up anything about guitar effects chains and you'll get several schools of thought...all interesting, but not all applicable to all situations either. You could also try asking in the guitar forum about effects ordering, I'd bet.

Hope that helps!

This is a GREAT post!!!!

Another thing I may add is that when you do record just your guitar clean into the PC and then re-amp to record your guitar tone, the edits you do to the clean sound in your pc get covered up so if you do a good job editing, it will be like there aren't any edits at all once you run your signal back through your amp.
 
I know that this isn't going to be a very popular option for a lot of people around here but here it goes.

I've got a Line6 X3 Live, It's got a USB connection that allows you to connect and record direct to your computer. I've never had any suprises recording this way, the recording always sounds exaclty like what you here when you play. I've never tried it before but it also comes with a plug-in that has all the FX that the pedal comes with so I'm sure that you could record clean and and use the plug-in.

I think a huge advantage to recording this way is that there isn't any a/d d/a conversion. Just the guitar to the pedal.

Lucky for me, the GT-10 can accept USB input instead of guitar input, so the processing of my signal from my computer doesn't go through another A/D-D/A conversion. I was originally recording the clean and amplified signals at the same time, until I really paid attention and could hear the digital artifacts from so many conversions at once.

I haven't don't all of the testing in this area that I can, I'm sure, but so far my ears have been telling me (at least with all of my A/D-D/A capable hardware) that modeling my amp with my GT-10 might actually yield better results than the amp itself, just to eliminate the conversions and get rid of the horrible mess left behind (subtle, but horrible and "clicky" distortion...even when signals are well below the point of clipping).

In short, yes, utilize the USB output of your instrument chain if you can, especially when dealing with things like Line6 products that have pretty good amp modeling, etc. It should at least be something you consider if you have the option!

This is a GREAT post!!!!

Another thing I may add is that when you do record just your guitar clean into the PC and then re-amp to record your guitar tone, the edits you do to the clean sound in your pc get covered up so if you do a good job editing, it will be like there aren't any edits at all once you run your signal back through your amp.

Thanks! :) And yeah...editing the clean guitar "performance" lets you really hear if your edit job is smooth or not. For me, it goes right along with finding bad notes and what not. If you get it sounding good completely raw, you're on a fantastic start to a good guitar track. Definitely a good call here too.
 
Wow, good argument. If I'm wrong please educate me.

How in the F*CK do you think the audio gets into the computer via USB with out and A/D (ANALOG TO DIGITAL) converter?

How do you think that thing processes the signal WITH ALL THOSE DIGITAL MICROCHIPS in that DIGITAL box without an A/D converter?

And when the signal leaves that DIGITAL BOX how do you think it goes back to an analog signal with out a D/A (DIGITAL TO ANALOG) converter?


Do some research before you go off being a smart ass and spouting your beliefs as facts next time. Okay buddy :rolleyes:
 

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How in the F*CK do you think the audio gets into the computer via USB with out and A/D (ANALOG TO DIGITAL) converter?

How do you think that thing processes the signal WITH ALL THOSE DIGITAL MICROCHIPS in that DIGITAL box without an A/D converter?

And when the signal leaves that DIGITAL BOX how do you think it goes back to an analog signal with out a D/A (DIGITAL TO ANALOG) converter?


Do some research before you go off being a smart ass and spouting your beliefs as facts next time. Okay buddy :rolleyes:

When you connect via USB there is no need to convert anything to analog. As I said from the guitar to the pedal is the only conversion in the chain.

Okay buddy :rolleyes:
 
There are a whole bunch of ways to do this... I went through a hell of a process figuring out exactly the way I feel is "right" with my equipment for the types of projects I'm working on.

The very first thing I did, was work with my guitar itself. I did this with my Boss GT-10 pedal because I wanted this part for live performances as well, but the process drastically improved the quality of my guitar. I plugged the guitar into my pedal and listened clean. Then I took note of what I liked and didn't with that clean signal, and EQ'ed it to my liking (at this point, mostly just removing "bad" qualities). Then I added my Marshall amp and dialed that in to something close to what I like, without the use of the EQ above. Then I A/B'ed the EQ to see if that was actually helping or not, post amplifier. Then I added another equalizer after the amplification to address other "bad" qualities that arose from that. Then I moved my equalizers around so both were before or both were after the amp, both on either side of the amp, and then with both of them off. I really tried to figure out how to make my guitar sound as good as I could with my live rig before I went anywhere near the recording equipment. This process took days before I finally settled on some stuff.

After I dialed in my base "sound", I went on to just play with every other effect I use or thought I might want to use, and I put them all over the effects chain to figure out what each thing was capable of in various areas of the chain. The biggest difference seems to come from pre/post amplifier effects, in my experience. For a quick example, hook up a wah pedal before your amp, and then in your send/return loop (so it happens after the preamp does its magic)...the wah behaves quite differently.

Just as an example, my effects chain looks something like this...
Guitar -> EQ -> Compressor -> Wah -> Amp -> Gate (just to kill amp hiss after amplification) -> EQ -> Chorus -> Flanger -> Volume Pedal -> Delay -> Reverb

Only after doing all of that, did I start recording. Once I got that all squared away, I decided that it was best for me to record my guitar completely clean, straight into the computer. This way, I could focus on the performance, I could hear any mistakes easily, and I can take that clean signal and plug it into my guitar rig to record the actual "guitar sound" I want. It may seem like extra work, but in the long run it can save a good deal of time if the performance is perfect, but you want to just change a few settings with your amp or your effects. If you record with the effects applied already, you're stuck with them. Not necessarily a bad thing, but not all that great if you're unsure of your guitar sound.

There are some general guidelines and standards, but no "right" answer (as you'll hear a lot around here). Look up anything about guitar effects chains and you'll get several schools of thought...all interesting, but not all applicable to all situations either. You could also try asking in the guitar forum about effects ordering, I'd bet.

Hope that helps!

Very much appreciated, thank you for taking the time.
 
Dont worry tetra.... king of pain is one of those chumps that goes on forums to try to boost his ego and goes in with something to prove instead of just genuinely sharing your knowledge and being helpful.

i wouldnt waste your time adressing his bull shit.
 
Whether or not you like Kingofpain678 or the way he delivers information, he's right in this case. With that kind of device, it's basically the same as my GT-10: the device itself operates with digital effects, so in order for you to use it for any purpose (recording or otherwise), you are doing an analog to digital conversion into the device, then a digital back to analog conversion for the output. It's just the nature of the device.

So, when you record via USB, it's not that you're eliminating conversions altogether, you're just reducing the total number of conversions.

For example... If I take my GT-10 and plug the regular analog output into my M-Audio, I will get sound...and it won't even sound that bad...but it's doing more A/D-D/A than is required to get the source sound into my computer, since I can plug my guitar directly into the M-Audio and do a single conversion instead of a minimum of 3, by just going in and out from the pedal as analog.

The more conversions in the chain, the more artifacts you'll start to notice. This is even true on stage where you need to be mindful of your stomp boxes and how they operate. If you go through a lot of cheap stomp boxes that do A/D-D/A on both ends, you can really quickly get nasty digital distortion out of an otherwise awesome rig.
 
Whether or not you like Kingofpain678 or the way he delivers information, he's right in this case. With that kind of device, it's basically the same as my GT-10: the device itself operates with digital effects, so in order for you to use it for any purpose (recording or otherwise), you are doing an analog to digital conversion into the device, then a digital back to analog conversion for the output. It's just the nature of the device.

So, when you record via USB, it's not that you're eliminating conversions altogether, you're just reducing the total number of conversions.

For example... If I take my GT-10 and plug the regular analog output into my M-Audio, I will get sound...and it won't even sound that bad...but it's doing more A/D-D/A than is required to get the source sound into my computer, since I can plug my guitar directly into the M-Audio and do a single conversion instead of a minimum of 3, by just going in and out from the pedal as analog.

The more conversions in the chain, the more artifacts you'll start to notice. This is even true on stage where you need to be mindful of your stomp boxes and how they operate. If you go through a lot of cheap stomp boxes that do
A/D-D/A on both ends, you can really quickly get nasty digital distortion out of an otherwise awesome rig.

The thing I have an issue was the fact he dispensed his informative "wrong" post as if he was dismissing me as some ignorant noob when the fact is I've been recording music longer than he's been alive. If he would have bothered to read and understand my post I said exactly what you just said. The only A/D conversion is the guitar to the pedal. So to the point where the tracks get recorded there is only one A/D conversion when using the USB out.

Then in his next post he dispensed more of his infinite wisdom and followed it up by calling me a smart ass and coming down on me for not doing my research blah bah blah. when in fact everything I said was accurate.
 
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