Need some advice with live setup and recording

[VESSEL2020]

First off,
I am in no way an expert at anything I do. Pretty much learn by trial and error.
I own a good chunk of recording gear that I use mainly in my "bedroom studio".
I record mostly everything direct into my analog board (Tascam M-2600).
I currently do not have any "near field monitors", and I'm using what I have, which is a couple Peavey 15 inch stage monitors (mids), and a couple Peavey floor monitors on top of them...(saving up for a good pair of N.F.M.).

I do own a Yamaha O2R,..but it is currently getting serviced.

Here is my dilemma:
Me and my girl are putting a benefit show / fundraiser together for a friend that has landed on some very hard times. We are going to have raffles / face painting (for the kids), and about 6 or 7 bands play at a nearby park.

Well without trying to spend any out of pocket cash,..I would like to do the sound for the bands (instead of them playing raw)..and would also like to capture the moment of the fest on tape, disc, minidisc, dat, adat, or hard drive.(I despise the latter)
This is not a professional setting,..but I would like to get it as close as possible to sounding really good,..especially for the musicians donating their time and talent. I believe I have the means (gear) to do it,..so, I'm willing to put forth my best effort.
I do have some experience in sound (like I said,..not a pro) and I believe I have what it takes to make this day sound good.
I've played the drums for 20 somethin' years in a few bands, and every concert I go to,..you can find be somewhere by the board checking things out.
Well with that outta the way,..Here's my question..
Like I said before I have a recording console (M-2600) w/ P.S. (PS-2600)
and I also have a Yamaha EMX 312sc P.A.(has effects and compression) along with several outboard effects / compressors/ synths / and e.q.'s.
Can anyone out there give me the best advice on how to set up what I have,.. mainly for the best possible live rig. I know how to connect my outboard gear to my mixers,..But what I'd like to do is use my M-2600 recording console as a "live stage mixer" and then record from my stereo outs.
The PS-2600 power supply does not have any "outs" or "ins" on it (for speakers/monitors), as it is a power supply for a recording mixer.

How can I go about hooking up the M-2600 and the EMX 312sc without blowing anything?
Forgot to mention, that I do have 2 more floor monitors, 2 mids (12's), and 2 floor subs (15's) at my practice spot that I will be using for the event (all connected to the EMX 312sc 300 watts).
Can someone kindly direct me in the best possible setup with this gear, so I can have an excellent sound?..I'll worry about the recording after the sound is properly setup, as it is secondary, and I would just like to capture the moment along with having the bands sound their best. Attached are a couple pics of "some" of the gear I own.
Thanks in advance.

 

[VESSEL2020]

Bump,.... Anyone?

 

[miroslav]

I'm going to guess that those stage & floor monitors are NOT self-powered...?...and that you use the Yamaha to power them...?


If that is the case...you won't be able to just use the 2600 mixer, as you will still need to power the stage & floor speakers, and the 2600 has no built-in amp power....it's a recording mixer.
So....what you can do is use the 2600 as your main mixer and just feed a stereo pair output from the 2600 to the Yamaha (for the stage/floor monitors).
The 2600 should have an 8-buss out...so, using it's channel assign buttons run a mix to your recording device from the main stereo outs...and use a pair of the 8-buss outputs for the PA.
Use the 2600 Aux for your outboard FX.

The trick is in getting a good stage mix...that will also be a good recording mix.

There are probably at least 2-3 other ways you can go with your setup...but it really depends on what works for you and what you are comfortable with.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Can the EMX split its amps, one for mains and one for monitors? If so, run the left/right outputs of the Tascam into a pair of channels (say, 5/6) on the EMX for mains, and a post-fader aux out of the Tascam into another channel for monitors. Then use a stereo pair of subgroups for the recording. The "Direct" buttons on the mixer channels should be out (up) so you can use the tape outs as subgroup outs instead of channel outs. Don't assign the recording submix to the main mix. Do assign everything to the recording submix and monitor it with headphones. Assign vocals and anything else with essentially no stage volume directly to L/R, and anything producing enough sound on its own (drums, amps) to one or more subgroups (in addition to the recording submix), and assign those groups (other than the recording submix) to L/R. Use these submixes to lower the level of loud stuff in the P.A. without affecting the recording.

But I see two potentially serious problems. First, the EMX probably won't put out the kind of power you'll need if there are bands with drums and amps. Second, unless you're really experienced with this kind of thing, trying to run a live show and get a recording may be a bigger challenge than you realize.

You can solve the power issue with gear. Borrow or rent a couple of power amps. Then you can run two monitor mixes and properly power your mains. If I were you I'd set up the gear like the gig to make sure it works like you think and to get familiar with everything before the show.

 

[VESSEL2020]

I'm going to guess that those stage & floor monitors are NOT self-powered...?...and that you use the Yamaha to power them...?


If that is the case...you won't be able to just use the 2600 mixer, as you will still need to power the stage & floor speakers, and the 2600 has no built-in amp power....it's a recording mixer.
So....what you can do is use the 2600 as your main mixer and just feed a stereo pair output from the 2600 to the Yamaha (for the stage/floor monitors).
The 2600 should have an 8-buss out...so, using it's channel assign buttons run a mix to your recording device from the main stereo outs...and use a pair of the 8-buss outputs for the PA.
Use the 2600 Aux for your outboard FX.

The trick is in getting a good stage mix...that will also be a good recording mix.

There are probably at least 2-3 other ways you can go with your setup...but it really depends on what works for you and what you are comfortable with.

Thanks for the reply
No,..The monitors are not powered...and yes, the 312sc powers them.
The way that you just described is the EXACT way that I have it set up in my bedroom, effects and all.
What I'm tryin' to find out is,..Will it be o.k. to turn it up without blowin anything? I've never pushed it past 2 or 3 being it is in my bedroom, and there are neighbors.
The stereo outs of my M-2600 go to a channel on the 312sc and then the stereo outs of the 312sc go into whatever recording device chosen from there.
I mean...Is this o.k. to do? Should I be connecting a huge power supply w/ recording mixer into a P.A. system? Will it blow anything when I do decide to turn it up? Maybe this is a dummy question,..but I just don't want to ruin my gear. I work way to hard for the toys that I purchase.
Also,..I do have two Tascam MM-1 keyboard mixers (wall wart power supply)
with 20 ins and outs on 'em for a total of 40.
Any suggestions,..To add them into the "live" setup? (still lookin' for the manual if anyone has it - MM-1)
As of now, the direct channel outs of my M-2600 are being fed into my MM-1's for recording.
I'd be willing to take any suggestions anyone else out there might have too.
Thanks

 

[Chibi Nappa]

Wow... No way I can cover all of this in a forum post.

So, the basics:
*Remember above all else, a situation like this is sound reinforcement. Do not treat it as mixing a CD. A surprising amount of sound comes off of the stage itself. Just add to that sound.

*Get your stage monitors set perfectly before bringing anything up in the mains. If the stage monitors are f'ed, the whole show is f'ed.

 

[miroslav]

The stereo outs of my M-2600 go to a channel on the 312sc and then the stereo outs of the 312sc go into whatever recording device chosen from there.
I mean...Is this o.k. to do? Should I be connecting a huge power supply w/ recording mixer into a P.A. system? Will it blow anything when I do decide to turn it up?

It won't hurt anything.

The 2600 power supply simply powers the 2600 mixer...it doesn't send more power to the PA system.
The signals going from the 2600 to the Yamaha are line level signals...just make sure you are not overloading the Yamaha inputs (use the line inputs, not mic....or make sure you use the pad on the mic inputs)...and then get a good signal from the 2600 to the Yamaha...and you are good to go.

The PA system is powered by the Yamaha's internal power amp...and that is what will give you the higher levels...as long as the speakers can handle the 300W ...it's not a problem.

Proper gain staging is the key...watch your meters.

 

[VESSEL2020]

@ bouldersoundguy

Can the EMX split its amps, one for mains and one for monitors? If so, run the left/right outputs of the Tascam into a pair of channels (say, 5/6) on the EMX for mains, and a post-fader aux out of the Tascam into another channel for monitors. Then use a stereo pair of subgroups for the recording. The "Direct" buttons on the mixer channels should be out (up) so you can use the tape outs as subgroup outs instead of channel outs. Don't assign the recording submix to the main mix. Do assign everything to the recording submix and monitor it with headphones. Assign vocals and anything else with essentially no stage volume directly to L/R, and anything producing enough sound on its own (drums, amps) to one or more subgroups (in addition to the recording submix), and assign those groups (other than the recording submix) to L/R. Use these submixes to lower the level of loud stuff in the P.A. without affecting the recording.

But I see two potentially serious problems. First, the EMX probably won't put out the kind of power you'll need if there are bands with drums and amps. Second, unless you're really experienced with this kind of thing, trying to run a live show and get a recording may be a bigger challenge than you realize.

You can solve the power issue with gear. Borrow or rent a couple of power amps. Then you can run two monitor mixes and properly power your mains. If I were you I'd set up the gear like the gig to make sure it works like you think and to get familiar with everything before the show.

Yes the EMX 312sc does split main & monitor
I like the solution you gave,..a little confusing at first,..but I figured it out.
Yes,..I'm positive you are correct about the 312sc not being powerful enough,
but it's better than the bands playin totally raw (not a very big pavillion either).
Do you think it would be best to do the direct recording?..or try catching it in the air? maybe both? if possible
I do understand it is a big challenge,..but willing to try to pull it off.
My main concern is the bands gettin' a decent sound.
It's not gonna be a HUGE event,..just a little tiny community gathering
And yes, I definitely plan on trying the setup out first,...I have a week and a half left.
Thanks for the input,..very much needed!
I'd be willing to listen to any other ideas too.

 

[Racherik]

Can you tell us what type of bands you plan on recording? Are they the typical rock band with a Guitarist, Bass, Acoustic Drums, and Vocals? How loud are they going to play?

The reason I'm asking, is because 2 weeks ago I recorded my band live and got one heck of killer recording, but I choose the multi-track recording route with 15 tracks. I then did the mix down 1 week later after the concert. The amount of planning for that event was weeks plus thousands of dollars in recording equipment alone. Like I said the recording came out pretty good, but wish I could go back in time and fix about 20 things I didn't go right.

You could try double micing everything. One set of mics for recording, and another set for reinforcement. But without a real time ace sound man running only the recording mixer using high end isolation headphones your going to have problems.

You also try throwing up a omni mic at a place that sounds good and call it good enough.

I don't mean to discourage, but I would suggest you find someone who has skill in doing this sort of recording and get their help. If the event is something special you might even wish to bring in a hired gun.

At the very least you are going to need to do practice rehearsals/recordings at the venue at least several times before the event to make sure you can even get in the ball park of a decent recording. Recording live while battling mic bleed and the stage volume isn't trivial.

Racherik

 

[The Cancers]

Just as a shot in the dark there Vessel, where are you located?
There's a chance someone with some experience might read your post and might be nearby and willing to lend a helping hand.
I know if I was doing this, I'd definitely want at least one more person with some recording/live sound experience to help out. It's a really big job for one person to try and run live sound and get a decent recording at the same time.

 

[VESSEL2020]

Can you tell us what type of bands you plan on recording? Are they the typical rock band with a Guitarist, Bass, Acoustic Drums, and Vocals? How loud are they going to play?

We will have an assortment of different styles of music playing at the fundraiser. Some acoustic guitarist/singers, some punk bands, and some hardcore bands. I'm thinking it will be fairly loud since it will be outside, under a pavillion.
Thanks for sharing your experience

 

[VESSEL2020]

Just as a shot in the dark there Vessel, where are you located?

Located in Pa.
No one around but fellow musicians to help.
I'm not expecting to get a superb recording,..but hopefully I'll get lucky with the sound for the bands.

 

[VESSEL2020]

Alrighty,..This just in:

I got a loaner P.A. mixer and Powered Amplifier from a friend.
Not a big fan of Behringer products,..but beggers can't be choosers,..right?
I am grateful.

Now the new question is,...

What would be the best possible routing with the stuff mentioned above, for a live setup with recording possibilities?
Tascam M-2600 w/ P.S. , Behringer PMH 3000 16 input 800 watt powered mixer and Behringer Professional EP2500 2 x 1200 powered amplifier with 4 floor monitors, 2 mids, and 2 subs. Also, still have the 312sc and MM-1's to throw in the mix,..but I don't think I'll be needing those now,..unless someone tells me a better way to use them in the recording mix.
I do have ALL the proper cables/connectors and some.
I attached a couple pics with some specs available. Might have to add another reply for more pics, seein' as I'm only able to attach 4 at a time.
I'd appreciate anyones advice on the best possible way to set this up for a live show with recording.
Thanks

 

[VESSEL2020]

Here are some more pics.
Also,..If anyone can tell me what the mode switches do on the back of the powered amplifier EP2500, I'm curious to know their function.

 

[VESSEL2020]

some more pics

And a couple more...

I hope someone can help me out..with the new stuff I aquired last night.
Just tryin' to get the best possible sound. and recording with what I have now. Oh yeah, I figured out what the "mode switches" are for..but, if someone could kindly tell me how I should set them, along with a good routing
possibility for the new P.A. ,..I would be extremely grateful.

 

[VESSEL2020]

Forgot to add, That I also have a Yamaha Graphic E.Q. to throw in the mix. I know they are important in a live sound setting too.

 

[Racherik]

We will have an assortment of different styles of music playing at the fundraiser. Some acoustic guitarist/singers, some punk bands, and some hardcore bands. I'm thinking it will be fairly loud since it will be outside, under a pavillion.
Thanks for sharing your experience

It's going to be rough "punk != acoustic". I can see the "Volume Wars" coming.

You haven't told us how many mics you have, but It looks like you have enough mixers, amp & speakers to make everything louder. Now you need to look into what you need to record. What you need now is something that will let you multi track record. At the very least find, rent, or hire something like the Tascam 2488, or Fostex equivalent. I personally would use a Computer with a Phonic or Presonus multitrack interface. When I recorded my band live I recorded into a Laptop using the software program Reaper. My multi track hardware was a Phonic Firewire Helix Board.

Racherik

 

[VESSEL2020]

It's going to be rough "punk != acoustic". I can see the "Volume Wars" coming.

You haven't told us how many mics you have, but It looks like you have enough mixers, amp & speakers to make everything louder. Now you need to look into what you need to record. What you need now is something that will let you multi track record. At the very least find, rent, or hire something like the Tascam 2488, or Fostex equivalent. I personally would use a Computer with a Phonic or Presonus multitrack interface. When I recorded my band live I recorded into a Laptop using the software program Reaper. My multi track hardware was a Phonic Firewire Helix Board.

Racherik

I have several dynamic mics (sm57's),vocal mics (sm58's), condensers(mix), overhead omni's..and a shure drum micing kit (4). I'd say a little over 20 somethin'.
I do have a couple hard drive recorders like you mentioned,..but I'm a BIG fan of magnetic tape. I will be bringing a couple different formats with me as I do have the extra help for lugging the gear.
I have a nice Pioneer & Akai Reel to Reel, several multi track tape recorders (Tascam 688, 644, 488 mkII's, 424 mkII's,etc.) (Tascam DA-88's, DA-20's, Alesis ADAT XT20's, Alesis MasterLink, Zoom 1266, Zoom 1608)
but, only a 2 channel Tascam US-122 interface, along w/ Reaper too.

Oh, Did I mention I'll be playin' this event too?

I'm gonna have to tie on my superman cape for the day!

I am willing to put my ALL into this,..as I have been taking notes, and actually trying different options out at my practice spot with my band.

I know how big of a feat this is,..and I understand that "live sound" is different from "recording direct", and "live sound recording" is all whole different ball game...as there are MANY things to consider.

I'd rather not record into a computer if at all possible,..But If someone with more experience tells me otherwise,..I'm willing to listen and learn.

Anyone out there,...That might have some suggestions,..Lay 'em on me.
Keep 'em comin'!!! I like to hear several different opinions, on how to set this equipment up.

 

[Racherik]

I have several dynamic mics (sm57's),vocal mics (sm58's), condensers(mix), overhead omni's..and a shure drum micing kit (4). I'd say a little over 20 somethin'.
I do have a couple hard drive recorders like you mentioned,..but I'm a BIG fan of magnetic tape. I will be bringing a couple different formats with me as I do have the extra help for lugging the gear.
I have a nice Pioneer & Akai Reel to Reel, several multi track tape recorders (Tascam 688, 644, 488 mkII's, 424 mkII's,etc.) (Tascam DA-88's, DA-20's, Alesis ADAT XT20's, Alesis MasterLink, Zoom 1266, Zoom 1608)
but, only a 2 channel Tascam US-122 interface, along w/ Reaper too.

Oh, Did I mention I'll be playin' this event too?

I'm gonna have to tie on my superman cape for the day!

I am willing to put my ALL into this,..as I have been taking notes, and actually trying different options out at my practice spot with my band.

I know how big of a feat this is,..and I understand that "live sound" is different from "recording direct", and "live sound recording" is all whole different ball game...as there are MANY things to consider.

I'd rather not record into a computer if at all possible,..But If someone with more experience tells me otherwise,..I'm willing to listen and learn.

Anyone out there,...That might have some suggestions,..Lay 'em on me.
Keep 'em comin'!!! I like to hear several different opinions, on how to set this equipment up.

Ha!! With all that equipment, what do you need us for? Hook your Tascam 688, set your preamp levels, and record away. Record, Debug, Record, Debug, rinse and repeat.

Racherik

 

[VESSEL2020]

Ha!! Record, Debug, Record, Debug, rinse and repeat.

Racherik

I like that,..I'm gonna hafta steal one from ya!

But, No..Seriously,

How would you setup the M-2600 to the P.A. system?
Or, should I NOT even bring that board with me?
Would you just bring the 688 and the P.A.?
Like I said before,..I have some experience with recording direct,..
I'd say I'm somewhere between beginner and intermediate with catching a decent room ambience recording,..not to familiar with a "live sound recording" outside in the air though. I've experimented with it a couple times, and got what I thought was a decent enough recording to play back for other people, and not feel like the representation was crap, after they heard it.
I'm curious to hear what others would do in this situation.
I'm not recording or doing sound for Metallica or some other household name,..but I would like to catch the moment with some clarity.