Using Stereo Enhancer pulgins in Mastering

  • Thread starter Thread starter BillC15
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philbagg said:
I always thought you'd put dither before a limiter? What about the "quantize" feature on most limiters (Sonalksis MaxLimit, Waves L1,L2,L3 etc.)?
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The quantize control only sets the target bit depth. Dithering/noise shaping should happen after the limiter or as the last process when reducing the word length/bit rate. On these plugs (above), even though it is included as an option on the limiter the process still follows the limiter.
 
Waltz Mastering said:
The quantize control only sets the target bit depth. Dithering/noise shaping should happen after the limiter or as the last process when reducing the word length/bit rate. On these plugs (above), even though it is included as an option on the limiter the process still follows the limiter.
Click to expand...

They must compensate for it when using dither, if it does come after the limiter. On the occassions I've gotten to use these plugs, I've brickwalled the peaks to 0dBFS and applied dither (quantize from 24 to 16bit) and they still haven't clipped.
 
philbagg said:
They must compensate for it when using dither, if it does come after the limiter. On the occassions I've gotten to use these plugs, I've brickwalled the peaks to 0dBFS and applied dither (quantize from 24 to 16bit) and they still haven't clipped.
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0dBFS in 24 bit is the same as 0dBFS in 16 bit; there's nothing to really compensate for in that regard. When you truncate those 8 bits, they're removed from the bottom of the signal, not the top. Then the dither is applied in order to "smooth" the resulting truncation or quantization noise at the bottom. Those 0dBFS peaks are untouched.

G.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
0dBFS in 24 bit is the same as 0dBFS in 16 bit; there's nothing to really compensate for in that regard. When you truncate those 8 bits, they're removed from the bottom of the signal, not the top. Then the dither is applied in order to "smooth" the resulting truncation or quantization noise at the bottom. Those 0dBFS peaks are untouched.

G.
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Yeah I get that, but normally whenever I apply a limiter to 0dBFS on the master bus, the signal won't clip (though it will reach 0dBFS), but when I apply a separate dither plug-in afterwards without using the dither on the limiter plug-in, it clips. I'm assuming it's due to the (inaudible) noise that dither adds that causes it to clip. But what I'm saying is, if the dither on those limiter plug-ins comes after the limiter, they must be compensating for it (because the signal doesn't clip).
 
philbagg said:
Yeah I get that, but normally whenever I apply a limiter to 0dBFS on the master bus, the signal won't clip (though it will reach 0dBFS), but when I apply a separate dither plug-in afterwards without using the dither on the limiter plug-in, it clips.
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I'm only guessing here:

One possibility might be that your master bus limiter is working in 32-bit floating point but your aftermarket plug is not.

Another possibility might be if you're looking at two different clip indicators in the two different plugs, they may be programmed to indicate clipping differently. Some clip indicators will read a clip if only one sample clips, others require 3, 5 or 8 consecutive samples to clip before they light up.

A third may have to do with a difference in the quality or type of dither algorithm. If you're only looking at one set of meters, one dither algorithm may be pushing the clip indicator beyond it's clip threshold of consecutive samples while the other one does not.

Twenty-three skidoo!

G.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
Another possibility might be if you're looking at two different clip indicators in the two different plugs, they may be programmed to indicate clipping differently. Some clip indicators will read a clip if only one sample clips, others require 3, 5 or 8 consecutive samples to clip before they light up.
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No I usually only refer to the clip indicator on the master bus meter in Pro Tools.

A third may have to do with a difference in the quality or type of dither algorithm. If you're only looking at one set of meters, one dither algorithm may be pushing the clip indicator beyond it's clip threshold of consecutive samples while the other one does not.
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This makes a lot of sense, could be this :)
 
I was using stereo expander few times, but later, when I listen to the mix, I usually decide to "undo" it, or at least decrease intensity of an effect. I was also using SINDO to narrow some very wide pads when I had to make some mono compatible songs. These wide pads simply disappear in mono mix because of opposite phase.
 
whitechild said:
I was using stereo expander few times, but later, when I listen to the mix, I usually decide to "undo" it, or at least decrease intensity of an effect. I was also using SINDO to narrow some very wide pads when I had to make some mono compatible songs. These wide pads simply disappear in mono mix because of opposite phase.
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I understand that if you're using a stereo effect, and there's phase issues between left and right, that it will start to disappear the more mono you get... But, why would you use stereo effects if there's a phase issue anyway? It's going to sound weird and lobsided anyway. The only difference is that the phase difference is coming from two speakers instead of one.
 
philbagg said:
I understand that if you're using a stereo effect, and there's phase issues between left and right, that it will start to disappear the more mono you get... But, why would you use stereo effects if there's a phase issue anyway? It's going to sound weird and lobsided anyway. The only difference is that the phase difference is coming from two speakers instead of one.
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Many todays soft synths have very wide pads with negative phase. It's nothing unusual. Many of these pads are really beautiful, so I sometime use them, but make them narrower.
 
whitechild said:
Many todays soft synths have very wide pads with negative phase. It's nothing unusual. Many of these pads are really beautiful, so I sometime use them, but make them narrower.
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Have you ever flipped the phase on one side of a commercial track? It never sounds good.

(IMO)
 
Yes I did.
I was asked to write some music for our local TV station, that's why I had to make it mono compatible, if that's why you keep asking me why I was narrowing pads. They provide mono sound signal.
 
philbagg said:
Have you ever flipped the phase on one side of a commercial track? It never sounds good.

(IMO)
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I can't speak for the specific plug that whitechild is talking about, but a lot of those expanders combine flipping the phase with a touch of delay as well.

G.
 
Good thing about SINDO 2 stereo expander/narrower is that mix stays untouched if you apply the effect, which means, if you convert it to mono the track with effect applied will have the same volume like before the effect. So, you don't have to worry about "loosing" your track in the mix because you wanted to expand it or make it narrower.
 
Well if it works, it works! We can sit here and talk all day about the results of mono-ing a stereo pad with negative phase, but if there's a fix and you can do it and it still sounds good then that's what matters.
 
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