panning tracks and using plug ins on pro tools 8.0.3

[maxygalaxy1]

hello, i have noticed that no matter how much i play around with the sounds on pro tools i never seem to be able to reach that crystal clear sexy feel that is achieved on studio recorded tracks.

at the moment, i'm making a track with:
1) an electric guitar playing palm muted blocks (L + R 84, compressed with a 30% mix of big hall reverb)
2) an acoustic guitar playing some chords (L + R 100, same reverb)
3) a mono finger tapping and guitar strumming on a spanish acoustic (L+R 70)
4) a stereo piano on xpand 2 (L + R 51, reverbed 10% mix big hall)
5) stereo big legato strings - also through xpand 2 (L + R 62)
6) a set of "live" drum loops off some loop program that i got with pro tools (L + R 11, 25% reverb mix)
7) a bass guitar on xpand 2 (L 24, L24)

Now, i've got them all EQ'd with individual settings from JOeMeek - i.e. "strings" etc but when i listen to the mix, it just doesn't sound crisp, things don't sit too nicely in the mix. i am yet to add the vocals and was thinking of laying the main at pan 0 and the backing at 35 or so..) it's all balanced, just unfulfilling. it should be exciting, but it just lacks it... does anyone have any tips? i know it's all trial and error but just in case you might be able to save me another few days of frustration?
Ta!

 

[Chibi Nappa]

hello, i have noticed that no matter how much i play around with the sounds on pro tools i never seem to be able to reach that crystal clear sexy feel that is achieved on studio recorded tracks.

... does anyone have any tips? i know it's all trial and error but just in case you might be able to save me another few days of frustration?
Ta!

Record again. Listen very carefully to your monitors as you record this time. Be extremely picky about every single aspect of the sound before you even hit record.

The crystal-clear sexy studio feel exists the instant the engineer hits the record button. What we hear and identify as "professional" does not come in mixing or mastering.


When you do get to mixing, cool it on the plugins. And what do you mean when you say (L + R 100)?

 

[mattr]

Probably a good thing to do would be to post an example mix in the MP3 Clinic and take it from there... we can only deduce a small amount about your current mixes from the details you've posted... listening to one is a far better way of understanding what you're talking about

 

[RAMI]

at the moment, i'm making a track with:
1) (L + R 84
2) (L + R 100
3) (L+R 70)
4) (L + R 51
5) (L + R 62)
6) (L + R 11
7) (L 24, L24)

OK, first thing. I'm not understanding those panning numbers. Some of them are for mono instruments, yet you're still giving us something like (L +R 84). I don't get that. Are you doubling instruments, even the bass????

Now, i've got them all EQ'd with individual settings from JOeMeek - i.e. "strings"

I don't really understand this sentence either. Are you simply using pre-sets????

If the answer to both these questions is "yes", then you might want to re-think the way you're doing things.

 

[maxygalaxy1]

apologies, that wasn't very clear of me - yes, all live tracks that i recorded - which covers all the guitar parts apart from the bass, have been doubled - with the duplicated mono track panned to the opposite side to the original - i.e. guitar panned 50 Left, guitar duplicated panned 50 right. I have used pre-set plug-ins for the EQ of each individual track, so for instance, for the strings track, I have used, "Strings" within the JOEmeek EQ plug in.

The synth tracks were created using a stereo instrument track with the expand plug-in, which i then recorded to stereo audio tracks.
It just occurred to me that I may have recorded the instrument tracks to audio and then moved them around, would that typically alter the sound to make it more boxy? if so i will re record them at 0 and then pan the audios.

I will upload this song to a url as soon as i can so that it can be understood better.

I appreciate the help - many thanks.

 

[philbagg]

apologies, that wasn't very clear of me - yes, all live tracks that i recorded - which covers all the guitar parts apart from the bass, have been doubled - with the duplicated mono track panned to the opposite side to the original - i.e. guitar panned 50 Left, guitar duplicated panned 50 right.

Duplicating a track and panning the two left and right doesn't do squat. It simply makes it louder.

Think about it: If you have one mono track and it's panned center, it's going to come out of both speakers at the same time, sounding the exact same.

If you clone the track. Pan one left and one right, they're still going to come out both speakers at the same time, sounding the exact same. Only with increased volume (panning increases volume).

My advice:
1) Don't bother duplicating and panning, just turn the fader up. And if the fader's already at the top, you're doing something wrong.

2) Post examples in the mp3 clinic. Giving us lists with instruments and settings doesn't mean anything to us. We can't read sound

3) Stop using presets. Learn how to use an EQ properly (or any other kind of equipment, such as compression, that you're using). Learn what kind of sounds come from different bands in the frequency spectrum. A preset doesn't know what your track needs. If you can learn to listen to your track, and train your ears to hear what it needs, then you can apply what needs to be done.

There are too many people going out and buying Pro Tools and other software and just lashing into the presets and stuff, thinking they're going to make the best sounding records around from the get-go. In fairness, these programs are advertised as a way to make audio so easy, but that's only if you know what you're doing first.

It just occurred to me that I may have recorded the instrument tracks to audio and then moved them around, would that typically alter the sound to make it more boxy? if so i will re record them at 0 and then pan the audios.

What?? I really don't get what you're saying here. Could you elaborate?

EDIT: For the people wondering about the numbers (eg. L+R 100), that's how Pro Tools meters your panning. "L 100" would be hard left.

 

[Jeff_D]

Duplicating a track and panning the two left and right doesn't do squat. It simply makes it louder.

Think about it: <snip>

Exactly right... and in addition to that, if you took each mono track, duplicated it it, panned it equal amounts to each side then everything is really still mono- you arent taking adavntage of a stereo mix at all. No need to duplicate. Just pan. Also, as Philbagg pointed out duplicating each part really just makes it louder, which means you're probably clipping the master output. select all of your tracks (once you're done deleting the ones you've duplicated) and turn them all down a few decibels. The master output meter shouldn't be clipping.

 

[philbagg]

The master output meter shouldn't be clipping.

Yeah this is one very important one. If you don't have a master fader set up in Pro Tools, all your individual audio tracks can look fine, with the meters dancing away and no red lights (clipping) on them. But they could be clipping on the master output when they're all summed together. So, set up a master fader, and keep an eye on it. Your mix should be peaking around -6dBFS (the little -6 on the right side of the meter in Pro Tools). If it sounds too quiet, turn up your speakers/headphones (which doesn't affect your mix), and not your faders (which could ruin your mix if you're pushing too loud).

 

[RAMI]

duplicated mono track panned to the opposite side to the original - i.e. guitar panned 50 Left, guitar duplicated panned 50 right.

Like the other guys said, this is a total waste of time and probably part of the reason you don't like your recordings. All you're doing is going super-mono and muddying up your mixes.

If you feel you must double a guitar part (for example), play it twice. Don't worry, this whole "cloning a track to double it" argument comes up every few weeks here, and for some reason, some people still think it actually accomplishes anything.

I have used pre-set plug-ins for the EQ of each individual track, so for instance, for the strings track, I have used, "Strings" within the JOEmeek EQ plug in.

Pre-sets don't work, especially with EQ. There is no such thing as a "string" EQ, or any other instrument, for that matter. You'll never be happy with your recordings until you use YOUR ears and EQ (or don't EQ) something according to what you HEAR should be done. This takes years of pracitce, but recording is not like coloring by numbers. Every situation is different and pre-sets will never work for everything.

 

[maxygalaxy1]

That's really helpful guys - thank you. I will take out all the duplicate guitar tracks and start again with my own EQs/compressor settings from here on. I do use a master fader to keep an eye on all the levels so there wasn't any clipping but nevertheless the piano and strings sounded boxy... back to the drawing board. Logically, a mono panned piano and strings at 0 should produce a fuller sound right? if i follow this more or less:
i.e. http://www.oebs.org/page/ypc-edu-pack/image-edu-pack/orchestra.jpg

i just find that sometimes the instruments get bunched up too tight and the mix can sound muddy... which is why i try and use pan and delays to get the spacing. but this can also get quite gappy. i also discovered the AIR stereo wide plug in - which starts farken everything right up at times as well.

Thanks again for the posts.
M

 

[RAMI]

My advice would be to forget the delays, cloning, stereo-widifiers, etc.....and just try to get a good mix with your volume levels and panning frist. All those other effects are just that: effects. They should enhance an otherwise already solid mix. They shouldn't be depended on to acquire a good mix.

It's like (sorry Glen) making a meal. You use salt and pepper to spice it up. But you shouldn't be cooking with the idea in mind that the salt and pepper will save it from not tasting good.

 

[maxygalaxy1]

great advice - much appreciated, and i'll set to work on that.
M

 

[Chibi Nappa]

nevertheless the piano and strings sounded boxy...

Again, that is a recording problem that can never fully be repaired in mixing. Record again and try placing the mic in a different location or at a different angle or back farther or up closer...

Logically, a mono panned piano and strings at 0 should produce a fuller sound right? if i follow this more or less:
i.e. http://www.oebs.org/page/ypc-edu-pack/image-edu-pack/orchestra.jpg

i just find that sometimes the instruments get bunched up too tight and the mix can sound muddy... which is why i try and use pan and delays to get the spacing.

I don't think you quite understand panning. Just pan a single mono instrument off to the side and that's it. No copy on the other side. No delay. Just a simple pan.

i also discovered the AIR stereo wide plug in -

I would file that under "put it away and don't even look at it until you have done a year or five of learning... and then don't use it anyway".

 

[philbagg]

i just find that sometimes the instruments get bunched up too tight and the mix can sound muddy...

Just wondering, how do you plan to fix muddyness with panning?

 

[maxygalaxy1]

well, anyways, have put some stuff up at this web address, will link it on the mp3 clinic. first 3 songs done with pro tools, others on garage band... 4 months of work. http://maxluckhille.com/music