Recording Vocals

[loveofjazz]

I've heard it mentioned a few times lately about boxy sounding amps or vocals. Seems the issue is that the amp or vocals were mic'd & recorded in a room too small.
Outside of some effect issues I had on a recent tune I submitted in the MP3 forum, I feel like my vocals turned out okay. I went back and listened to the dry track, and it doesn't sound (to me) like they were recorded in a shoe box.

So...

What is an ideal sized room to record vocals in?
-or-
Is there an ideal sized room to record vocals in?

-and-
How did you come to that conclusion?

 

[Monkey Allen]

I dunno...people do it in broom cupboards and places you couldn't swing a cat...other people do it in big spacious high ceiling rooms...other people do it in big high ceiling rooms with little 3 sided broom cupboards built in the middle...I do it on the couch.

 

[Steenamaroo]

i can't tell you what's ideal, but i can tell you two things,,,,

1 : the golden rule always seems to be to just try it with what you have...


if you like it, it's right!

2: all vocals that i've recorded have been done in a less than ideal garage of standard single garage size, with no room treatment whatsoever..

i've had trouble with drum sounds, guitar sounds etc etc,,,,but vocals for some reason always seems to work out to my liking..


just don't over think it,,,,unless you're unhappy with what your getting and don't know why....


i often compare my final mix to the dry take,,,and i always think "wow, the dry recording sounds terrible",,,,,
but then when you take of shades you always think everything looks to bright for a while,right?

 

[grimtraveller]

This probably sounds really dumb and ignorant but I keep wondering, if you're in fairly close to the mic that you use and you're going to add some reverb and possibly compress the vocal, how much of a difference can the room make ? I'm not at all saying that it can't, by the way. I'm curious as to how much difference it can make. And does double tracking make it make less of a difference ?

 

[Steenamaroo]

i had this debate very recently with someone...it was more of a difference in terminology than a debate but none the less....


i think the reason i get away with it is that i have a tendancy to use big dynamic mics, and generally speaking, the singer is much closer to them then he/she would be a condenser...

for that reason, i think less of the room comes through in my recordings.

regardless of mic though, the room makes less difference the closer you are to the mic..

 

[loveofjazz]

Good points to think of. Thanks.

I had considered recording my next round of vocals with two mics...a dynamic close up and a condenser maybe 3 or 4 feet away. I read about it years ago and tried it with a guitar amp. I liked the results. We'll see how it works for vocals.

 

[Steenamaroo]

cool....good luck

 

[TexRoadkill]

The size of the room is less important then the sound of the room. Typically small rounds can sound worse but if there is enough diffusion and absorption they can work fine for close miked stuff.

They main advantage of a bigger room is that you can mike from a greater distance with less noticeable room sound in the track. That can help give the tracks a more natural sound with less proximity effect and give your mixes more depth and space instead of having everything right in your face or slathered with artificial reverb.

 

[matttheaxe]

I agree. I have recorded vocals in a bedroom, and a crappy basement. It all sounds the same. I have even recorded with the live monitors running (low) and it made no difference.

The ambience of a room can play a part with a loud instrument and a sensitive mic.

 

[G-Jay]

This probably sounds really dumb and ignorant but I keep wondering, if you're in fairly close to the mic that you use and you're going to add some reverb and possibly compress the vocal, how much of a difference can the room make ? I'm not at all saying that it can't, by the way. I'm curious as to how much difference it can make. And does double tracking make it make less of a difference ?

If you sing close to the mic then it can make it sound boxy as well. The proximity effect will come into play and the vocal certainly won't sound open.

Room modes can over emphasise certain low mid frequencies which will contribute to a boxy and dull sound.

Ideally you want to get a bit of distance between the singer and the mic 8-12 inches is a good guide.

I usually put a bed matress against the wall behind the mic and hang a thick duvet behind the singer. Sometimes I even throw a blanket over the top. This stops a good amount of the room relections getting into the mic.

Unless the room sound is an integral part of the sound I try and eliminate as much as possible from the recording. I do this because I like to add delay and reverb to my vocals and room sound on the recording can get really muddy and messy sounding when you send it to the delay and verb busses.

 

[loveofjazz]

If you sing close to the mic then it can make it sound boxy as well. The proximity effect will come into play and the vocal certainly won't sound open.

I recorded vocals with a Shure Beta 58. I was maybe 3 to 4 inches from it at any given time. Next round of vocals I record, I'll try and give around 10 to 12 inches of space between me and the microphone. I'd like to see what the results would be.

 

[G-Jay]

I recorded vocals with a Shure Beta 58. I was maybe 3 to 4 inches from it at any given time. Next round of vocals I record, I'll try and give around 10 to 12 inches of space between me and the microphone. I'd like to see what the results would be.

A Beta 58 is going to lack the high end air and sizzle of a decent large diaphragm condenser.

Of course, some voices really suit the 58, I've heard and read that Freddie Mercury and Bono have recorded keeper tracks in the studio using a 58.

However, in my experience, most vocals benefit from a large diaphragm condenser with a pop shield and the singer 8-12 inches away with the room refelctions kept to a minimum.

After that it's all about the song, the singer, the vibe, and the performance. (then the compression, delay, verb, and possible double tracking).


P.S If you do have to use a 58 and sing fairly close then you might try a low shelf EQ set to take a dbs from 300-400hz to compensate for the proximity effect and a High Shelf boost of a db or 2 around 8k to add a bit more sizzle. As well as a High Pass Filter set at around 100hz to keep the rumble and unwanted stuff out.

 

[mixsit]

I recorded vocals with a Shure Beta 58. I was maybe 3 to 4 inches from it at any given time. Next round of vocals I record, I'll try and give around 10 to 12 inches of space between me and the microphone. I'd like to see what the results would be.

The design tone difference of a live vocal style mic comes into play as well. Where a studio mic has a rather flat full tone balance at several inches, live' mics with some exceptions are rolled of on the bottom to compensate for the closer working distance.
So there you get to play with the trade off of better isolation against somewhat less natural tone style, breath noises and such of a 'close mic.
A real good exception to that is an RE20, probably the SM7. (don't have the SM7 so I tread lightly on the opinion there..

 

[moresound]

If you do have to use a 58 and sing fairly close then you might try a low shelf EQ set to take a dbs from 300-400hz to compensate for the proximity effect and a High Shelf boost of a db or 2 around 8k to add a bit more sizzle. As well as a High Pass Filter set at around 100hz to keep the rumble and unwanted stuff out.

You have that curve like that already on a 58 the highs are boosted as much as 5 db. with the low end roll off beginning with at 100hk.
That's what makes it such a wonderful vocal microphone.

 

[G-Jay]

You have that curve like that already on a 58 the highs are boosted as much as 5 db. with the low end roll off beginning with at 100hk.
That's what makes it such a wonderful vocal microphone.

Not quite. The standard 58 rolls off frequencies under 100hz but the proximity effect can affect the tone well into the mid range so I often find I need to take a few dbs off from around 400hz on a vocal recording with a 58.

Also, it has a presence peak around 8k but it has a sharp roll off after 10k which is where a lot of the sizzle and air can be found. A boost with a high self EQ can help out a bit.

The Beta 58 compensates more for the proximity effect and has more high end boost built into the mic.

However, the SM58 and Beta 58s are fine live mics but they lack a smooth high end due to physics. It isn't possible to get the same high end with a dynamic mic as you can with a condenser regardless of what EQ you use.

 

[moresound]

Very true about LDC for vocals. I was just looking at the factory specs of the 58s and noticed the curve that's all.

 

[BrentDomann]

This probably sounds really dumb and ignorant but I keep wondering, if you're in fairly close to the mic that you use and you're going to add some reverb and possibly compress the vocal, how much of a difference can the room make ? I'm not at all saying that it can't, by the way. I'm curious as to how much difference it can make. And does double tracking make it make less of a difference ?

I just want to add that the more you compress the vocal, the more you're going to hear the room.

 

[loveofjazz]

A Beta 58 is going to lack the high end air and sizzle of a decent large diaphragm condenser.

Of course, some voices really suit the 58, I've heard and read that Freddie Mercury and Bono have recorded keeper tracks in the studio using a 58.

However, in my experience, most vocals benefit from a large diaphragm condenser with a pop shield and the singer 8-12 inches away with the room refelctions kept to a minimum.

After that it's all about the song, the singer, the vibe, and the performance. (then the compression, delay, verb, and possible double tracking).


P.S If you do have to use a 58 and sing fairly close then you might try a low shelf EQ set to take a dbs from 300-400hz to compensate for the proximity effect and a High Shelf boost of a db or 2 around 8k to add a bit more sizzle. As well as a High Pass Filter set at around 100hz to keep the rumble and unwanted stuff out.

The only microphones I currently own are a Shure Beta 58, an SM57 that stays in my gig bag for my stage amp, and a CAD GXL2400 condensor mic. I may have some inexpensive Radio Shack thing from years gone by in my pedal box.

I'm moving my rig to another part of the house today. When I'm set up again later this week, I'll try both it and the condenser mic with a good amount of distance and post my results.

I just want to add that the more you compress the vocal, the more you're going to hear the room.

Not a big fan of overusing compression. I find myself using it more and more, but I try to make it sound is live or realistic as possible.