A Strange Question

  • Thread starter Thread starter organeyes11
  • Start date Start date
O

organeyes11

New member
I apologize if this has been answered before, i feel slightly retarded for asking, but is there logic in recording guitars or vocals with drum mics? Placing them in different areas and what not. Im sure if this was a useful way of micing i would have read about it before. Just a question!
 
How do you mean "with drum mics"...?
As in....
1....using the same model mic for vocals/guitar that you would use on a kit..?
2...letting the drum mics pick up the vocals/guitar via bleed....?

There are only some mics that would be considered dedicated drum mics and not much good for anything else...so AFA that, use the mics you have, give them all a try and see what works best for the situation.

Letting other things bleed into your drum mics...like when everyone is in the same space...that's a matter of taste/production style.
Some people don't care, some like to minimize/control it....some don't want any.
Again...it's up to you...there's no right/wrong here.
 
I was referring to using Drum mics AS vocal/ guitar mics. NOT letting them bleed.
 
organeyes11 said:
I was referring to using Drum mics AS vocal/ guitar mics. NOT letting them bleed.
Click to expand...

Defining what mic you actually mean by "a drum mic" would be a good place to start... after all, there are very few decent dedicated 'drum mics' that are designed only for use on drums... most of the mics that people use on drums are general purpose microphones that are chosen because they suit then needs for that particular drum recording session. Or are we talking one of the Red5 7-piece @ $149 jobbies...?
 
To paraphrase MSHilarious- a mic does not know or care what is being recorded. There's really no such thing as a "drum" mic. There are dynamic mics, condenser mics, cardioid mics, etc. etc. Does this mean I would use a Sennheiser e604 as a vocal mic? No. I wouldn't use it because I don't love it. I wouldn't use it on a drum, either. Would I use an AKG D112 as a vocal mic? Yes. I've done it frequently. Would I use an AKG C414 on a snare drum? Yes. Would I use it on a guitar? Yes. The point is that many of the mics used on drums are the same mics used for everything else in a studio. If the only thing you can record with a mic is a drum, it's probably a bad mic, and you would be better off recording your drums with better mics.-Richie
 
Some mics have rather more aggressive tone curves that makes them a little less general purpose than some. Other than that your best bet it to try them. Do some experimenting. We find all sorts if interesting tones by breaking with the 'labels. Besides it's how you get a feel for what's what where.
 
organeyes11 said:
is there logic in recording guitars or vocals with drum mics?
Click to expand...
Yes. If the only mics you have are 'drum mics' then yeah. Even if they're not, it's worth experimenting. I've done this with mine. Sometimes the result was good, other times not so good. It depended on the singer, the song and the dynamics.
It's not as strange a question as you think.
 
Richard Monroe said:
Does this mean I would use a Sennheiser e604 as a vocal mic? No. I wouldn't use it because I don't love it. I wouldn't use it on a drum, either.
Click to expand...

I'm curious...why not use it on a drum? :confused:

The E609 is an excellent Snare mic and IMO sounds much better than a 57 or a few other typical choices used for miking Snares.

I've used various mic for Snare, but have settled on the E604 as my go-to Snare mic.

Here's some info from the Sennheiser website:
http://www.sennheiserusa.com/professional_wired-microphones_instrument-mics_evolution-600_004519
I just don't use the included drum clip...prefering to put it on a stand.
(The clip section comes off, and then the mic screws directly onto a mic stand.)
 
Well, Miroslav, I partly agree with you. I own an e609, and while it's no SM7, RE20, or MD441, it is an OK dynamic mic, and I have kept it around because it has occasional uses, and it's one of several mics I might use on cabs, toms, or snare. At one point I acquired an e604, because I was expanding options for percussion, and it was available for cheap. I auditioned it, the same as I would any other mic that is new to my cabinet. I tested it on vocals, guitar, harp, and Djembe. First, I hate the design, with its silly rim clip. I don't need mics picking up direct transmission of a rim shot, and I will *never* attach mics to drums, at least where sticks are involved. That's why God made mic stands. When evaluated on a variety of sources, the e604 revealed itself as a harsh, brittle,inaccurate, nasty mic, without a single thing to recommend it. If it can't record any delicate source with any accuracy, why the hell would I want to put it on a snare drum, or anything else? Yep, the e604 doesn't know or care what it is recording, and when I listen to the recording, I don't know either.-I gave it away to a nice poor drummer who was short of mics. I wouldn't even ask for money for it.

I advise you to take yours off the snare, put it up and record some vocals with it, or a piano. Then listen back, and ask yourself, "Why do I want to do that to a perfectly good snare drum?"-Richie
 
Richard Monroe said:
I don't need mics picking up direct transmission of a rim shot, and I will *never* attach mics to drums, at least where sticks are involved. That's why God made mic stands.
Click to expand...

Like I said...you just remove the clip, and it screws into a mic stand like any other mic. You have BOTH options.
For live gigs, there is merit to using the clips just for the economy and a less cluttered stage...which is why they probably include the rim clip.

If it can't record any delicate source with any accuracy, why the hell would I want to put it on a snare drum, or anything else?

…..

I advise you to take yours off the snare, put it up and record some vocals with it, or a piano. Then listen back, and ask yourself, "Why do I want to do that to a perfectly good snare drum?"
Click to expand...

Sorry...but that is a back-assward way of choosing mics IMO. ;)
Why the HELL would I want to take a mic specifically designed for drum/percussion instruments and then make my decision if it's a good drum mic ---- by testing it on vocals, guitar, harp....???

I just tracked with it yesterday, it's sounds great as a snare mic, and certainly not “harsh/brittle” like you say, and I've tried/compared it to some of the other models you mentioned.
Maybe it's you snare/mic combination?
I use it on a deeper wooden snare, and the 604 brings out just the right tone.
I didn't like what I was getting with the other models I tried...and that includes the 57 and 441. They were also good, but the 604 just sounds better for this snare.
Maybe yours was malfunctioning, if you say it was “harsh/brittle”…?

Using your mic selection mentality...one would need to only use/have mics that sound good on vocals (and every other source)...which is not very realistic or a practiced method. I have mics that sound good on vocals, but not really good on some instruments.
I also have a Cascade Fat Head ribbon mic that KILLS on guitar cabs...but is rather dull sounding on vocals and some other things.
I guess...I should get rid of all those mics???? :)

That's why there are so many types of mics and studios with lockers full of all kinds.
If they followed your approach...they would probably have to toss out more than half of their mics. :D
 
I use my Soundlux Clip on Drum mics for recording guitar cabs quite often and they sound Just fine .....
 
OK, I understand that drum mics need to have good fast transient response, good SPL handling, and that off-axis rejection is a good thing. On the other hand, mics just change sound, any sound, into an electrical signal. I am far from convinced that the *special* sound of drums is really special at all. The mics that work well on other things also work very well on drums. A C414 works just fine on snare, or vocals, or violin, or whatever. So what *are* the special qualities of a mic intended for percussion, that make it different from any other general purpose mic? I can tell you that I'm not particularly impressed by SM57, and I don't generally keep *any* single purpose mics in my cabinet.

I appreciate that the e604 is producing the sound you want on snare. Is that the sound of the snare you like, or the sound of the e604? I want a mic to reproduce the actual sound of the instrument, and if the mic can't accurately reproduce the sound of a Djembe, or a zither, a crumhorn, whatever, how can it accurately reproduce the sound of a snare drum? If I wanted an *analogue* of the snare sound, instead of the real sound, I'd use a drum module and triggers. I appreciate the mic is small, and is a lesser target than say, an SM7. Personally, I mostly use 3 mics on snare-MD421, AKG C320B, and sometimes a C414 on the bottom, depending on the floor.

I'm perfectly prepared to agree to disagree with you. I know you know what you are doing, and the e604 is obviously doing the job you want it to do. I'm curious about what you didn't like about MD441, which seems to me a *perfect* snare mic, except for being a little expensive to smack with a stick. It's my general opinion that if a mic that is only good for recording one thing, it is probably a bad mic. I think the brittleness of e604 is easy to overlook on snare, because the snares themselves are a somewhat brittle sound. When applied to a wide variety of sources, the limitations of the e604 as a basic mic are revealed in technicolor. Essentially, I believe in recording drums with good mics, and then dealing with *the drums*, not the mic, to get the sound I want. I assure you, I'll happily take that 441 and put it on a snare, or almost anything else.-Richie
 
Richard Monroe said:
I'm curious about what you didn't like about MD441, which seems to me a *perfect* snare mic, except for being a little expensive to smack with a stick. It's my general opinion that if a mic that is only good for recording one thing, it is probably a bad mic. I think the brittleness of e604 is easy to overlook on snare, because the snares themselves are a somewhat brittle sound.
Click to expand...

Like I said...with the deeper wooden snare, it might be that the 604 just works. I have not tried it with a metal snare, as both my drummer and I just prefer the wooden snare. :)
AFA having a dedicated mic for just one task...well, I disagree that it’s a bad way to go.
Like the 602 I use inside my kick….
I would NOT expect that mic to be real good on anything else (maybe bass cabs)...but it's right for the kick. So...the 604 and 602 are "permanently" assigned to those duties for the kit I'm using.
I may at some point try something else again....but not 'cuz these mics sound bad.
As another example....a lot of folks like the AKG D112 on kick...I don't on my kit.
So to have these global views about a particular model mic…is not a good way to go. Every situation is different.

But here's the real question....
...why do you feel you need to have to be able to use any mic on anything before you consider it a *good* mic? There are some high-end vocal mics that could sound crappy on some instruments...so...do you toss them too? ;)

I actually see the need/reason for some "specialized" mics, otherwise there would only be expensive, "do-it-all" mics....and even THEY would probably not do it all.
Plus...would you rather see a drummer trash a $200 mic or a $2000 mic? :D

You just have to try a mic and see how it works for the task at hand.
 
Several answers to several questions- Like most folks, I don't usually use very pricey mics to close mic drums, for the same reason as you, A Neumann is a terrible thing to waste. Besides, then I have to invent a story about how the drummer died. Secondly, I don't believe in the high end vocal mic that doesn't sound good on instruments. Name one. The U87, U47, U67, B.L.U.E. Bottle, RCA ribbons, Brauner Valvet, et al., have all been used with stunning results on a wide variety of instruments. You can't keep a good mic down. I agree D112 is not right for all kick drums at all times. It is, however very good on cello, standup bass, and as a voiceover and vocal mic for deeper voices. You're a baritone- have you ever tried singing into it?
Personally, I record a lot of weird stuff- world music, orchestral music, early music, Middle Eastern Dance music. I have to deal with zarb and zither, cistern and celeste, even a genuine non-electric harpsichord. Tympani, doumbek, Viola de Gamba, gut strung lute, etc., etc. I can only afford so many mics, preamps, etc. Therefore, things that can only do one thing crimp the budget, so they better do it *damned well* and/or be mission critical. Not every mic has to be great at everything, that's almost impossible. But- a really good mic can do almost anything adequately. That's why the old U87 (not necessarily the ai version) is so cool. There is *nothing* that you can't make adequate recordings of with it. Is it a "vocal" mic? No. it's a multipurpose studio condenser. Is an RE20 a "kick drum" mic? No. It is a multipurpose studio dynamic. That's my main purpose for multipurpose mics. A drum kit isn't an everyday reality here- it's just one of a thousand instruments somebody might pull out. Lots of times, I've never seen the instrument in question, and I have to guess on how to mic it up- a metal strung harp, Oh God... Like you say, every situation is different, and I do one of the broadest selection of situations of anyone on this board with a relatively small mic cabinet.-Richie
 
Richard Monroe said:
The U87, U47, U67, B.L.U.E. Bottle, RCA ribbons, Brauner Valvet, et al., have all been used with stunning results on a wide variety of instruments. You can't keep a good mic down.
Click to expand...

I'll get back to you when I can afford to have at least one of each of those to compare! :D
 
Well, you said "high end" didn't you? Surely they all qualify for that category.-Richie
 
Sure...they qualify as "high-end"...but I can't afford to have them to try out. :D

I still wouldn't assume that 'cuz they are are all high-end, that each and every one would be equally perfect for ANY task.
I know some people don't like the U87 for some things...and I'm sure the others all have their strong points, but also some things they may not be the right choice for.

Again...I'll get back to you on that...once they are all in my mic locker. ;)
 
Richard Monroe said:
I appreciate that the e604 is producing the sound you want on snare. Is that the sound of the snare you like, or the sound of the e604? I want a mic to reproduce the actual sound of the instrument, and if the mic can't accurately reproduce the sound of a Djembe, or a zither, a crumhorn, whatever, how can it accurately reproduce the sound of a snare drum?
Click to expand...
I guess that's the difference here. I might not be looking for a slavish reproduction of a drum sound. I am always looking for the sound that works for what I'm doing. On some songs, the e604 gives me just what I want. I couldn't really care less if it accurately recreates the drum in that case.

On other songs, the sound in the room is exactly what I want. In that case, I wouldn't go for the e604.
 
Just to clarify...I notice I said 609 one time instead of 604...but I always meant 604.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top