Pop / Rock Mastered Polished Turd - Want Some?

[Greg_L]

I use the Recorderman setup.


One thing you gotta remember....the drums you hear on commercial recordings are generally heavily processed. Take a modern commercial kick drum sound for example; real kicks typically don't sound like that in real life. Pro studios sample replace/blend and/or use multiple mics on the kick drums and other drums. Hell, Tommy Lee uses 3 mics per tom, and still blends in triggered samples. So for us modest home recordists to come anywhere close to those pro sounds with our mediocre equipment and crappy rooms, we gotta sometimes tweak the fuck out of things. Don't fall into the purist no-digital-tweak trap. It's a noble idea, but it's not realistic in the realm we live in if you want to even think about having pro sounding drum tracks. Sure, by all means try to get the best raw sound you can with what you have. But don't be afraid to virtually twist some EQ and compressor knobs if you need to.

 

[PoeticIntensity]

I use the Recorderman setup.


One thing you gotta remember....the drums you hear on commercial recordings are generally heavily processed. Take a modern commercial kick drum sound for example; real kicks typically don't sound like that in real life. Pro studios sample replace/blend and/or use multiple mics on the kick drums and other drums. Hell, Tommy Lee uses 3 mics per tom, and still blends in triggered samples. So for us modest home recordists to come anywhere close to those pro sounds with our mediocre equipment and crappy rooms, we gotta sometimes tweak the fuck out of things. Don't fall into the purist no-digital-tweak trap. It's a noble idea, but it's not realistic in the realm we live in if you want to even think about having pro sounding drum tracks. Sure, by all means try to get the best raw sound you can with what you have. But don't be afraid to virtually twist some EQ and compressor knobs if you need to.

No way.... The recorderman... Dang... I tried that once, just to give it a shot, and it sounded good... Come to think of it, I can't believe I'm not doing that now. I've got a spaced pair set up right now, and my room is treated in a very limited fashion... Heck... I'll take a picture and show ya what I've got. I'm gonna be doing a drum track for ido1957 sometime this week, so I'll try my luck at the recorderman again. Dang... Why didn't I think of using that sooner? bah... Thanks for the info, Greg. We'll see what the recorderman can do for any possible phasing I have going on using a spaced pair (not quite at the 3-to-1 rule, but I've gotta be close).

Anyway... Here's a photo of the drum mic'ing I've been using for the past year or so.

So, yeah... Thanks again for the info, Greg. If it wasn't midnight, I'd set it up and try it right now.

Oh, and as far as the "snob" thing goes... I'm only trying to get it sounding the best it can naturally, because if it sucks without filters, it'll most likely still suck with em'. I have nothing against using anything and everything to make recordings sound the absolute best they can.

 

[PoeticIntensity]

Man... I just don't know when to stop. I needed to be in bed hours ago.

Anyway... I got to thinking after talking about the drums, what I did exactly to that song to get the drums to sound that way, so I opened ardour up, and gave her a looksie.. Here's a breakdown for those who care.

• Toms were gated but otherwise untouched.
• Overheads were untouched, but the master had a 5db gain shelfed at 8K for sparkle.
• Snare had a 7db increase in the 1.3k region with a Q of 1.5
• Kick was insane... It was gated, compressed, and a 4-pole parametric on it with 3 of the 4 poles being at -20dbs, and the one left at +7.6db (not sure of the HZ of the poles... I'm tired)... The kick, without filters is completely unrecognizable. I recorded the kick with an Audix F-12. Horrid kick mic.

So yeah... Lotsa knob turning going on in this one, for sure. I need more material so I can tweak the settings for my 4041's and D6.

I'm going to bed now.

 

[Greg_L]

No way.... The recorderman... Dang... I tried that once, just to give it a shot, and it sounded good... Come to think of it, I can't believe I'm not doing that now. I've got a spaced pair set up right now, and my room is treated in a very limited fashion... Heck... I'll take a picture and show ya what I've got. I'm gonna be doing a drum track for ido1957 sometime this week, so I'll try my luck at the recorderman again. Dang... Why didn't I think of using that sooner? bah... Thanks for the info, Greg. We'll see what the recorderman can do for any possible phasing I have going on using a spaced pair (not quite at the 3-to-1 rule, but I've gotta be close).

Anyway... Here's a photo of the drum mic'ing I've been using for the past year or so.

So, yeah... Thanks again for the info, Greg. If it wasn't midnight, I'd set it up and try it right now.

Oh, and as far as the "snob" thing goes... I'm only trying to get it sounding the best it can naturally, because if it sucks without filters, it'll most likely still suck with em'. I have nothing against using anything and everything to make recordings sound the absolute best they can.

I'm not a room expert, so take that into consideration, but you've got some weirdness going on in that room. First of all, those foam pads on the wall are doing nothing. Secondly, I can't really tell from that pic, but it looks like your overheads are different distances from the snare and kick. That can introduce phase problems. Spaced pair still needs to be set up properly. Thirdly, get those monitors and desk out of the corner. That's a bad, bad, mixing position.

 

[sikter]

This is good, very good I mean.
Left and right guitar are making a perfect stereo picture. It's just perfect.
Well done!

 

[laser]

Hell of a job. If I was do do anything different I would turn the whole songs high ends up a very little and justs ee what that does. It might not work though. What equipment do you use as far as interface and software?

 

[PoeticIntensity]

I'm not a room expert, so take that into consideration, but you've got some weirdness going on in that room. First of all, those foam pads on the wall are doing nothing. Secondly, I can't really tell from that pic, but it looks like your overheads are different distances from the snare and kick. That can introduce phase problems. Spaced pair still needs to be set up properly. Thirdly, get those monitors and desk out of the corner. That's a bad, bad, mixing position.

Oh yes.... Weirdness abounds, for sure. No doubt. I'll have to disagree with you on one thing, though. Foam pads do nothing? Have you ever tried it? You should hear recordings I've done without them. There is no question whatsoever that, although they're far from perfect, those foam pads are doing far from nothing. I'm not sure why I've heard this same compliant from from quite a few people, but it's unmistakable. I have 2 or 3 recordings without foam pads, and there's no doubt that those foam pads reduce loads of high-frequency reflections.

Anyway... The rest I totally agree with. Spaced pair are not equidistant from snare / bass (not sure why I didn't think of that before), and I have to correct after-the-fact for phasing. And yes, I need to move the mixing station out of the corner. Great ideas, bro.

Oh.. and as far as the foam padding goes, I forgot that I blogged about the difference... and have a recording to prove it. First part of that recording is done without treatment. 2nd part *only* the treatment of the room was changed.

 

[Greg_L]

Maybe your room is so bad that anything is better than nothing? I dunno. I do hear a difference in your clip. Was everything exactly the same except for the foam? Nothing changed with the drums, mics, or processing? I've used foam before and it did nothing for me, and there's an assload of scientific and practical evidence that says the same. I didn't notice any difference in my room or practice space until I used actual traps and mid/high absorbers.

 

[PoeticIntensity]

Maybe your room is so bad that anything is better than nothing? I dunno. I do hear a difference in your clip. Was everything exactly the same except for the foam? Nothing changed with the drums, mics, or processing?

Yeah, dude... My room is an exact parallelogram. It's as rectangular as they get. It *sucks* for recording. Before I put the foam in, I could walk to the center of the room, clap my hands, and hear 10-20 distinct reflections. No closets, no furniture, no shelves - nothing but 4 walls, a mixing station, and musical instruments.

Also, yeah... I did that test precisely to actually see if foam would make any difference, so I set up my drums and mics, pushed the record button, played for a bit, then spent a couple hours putting up the foam - didn't touch mics, drums, or software, and when I was done, sat back down and played again for a few seconds. Nothing was touched between the two.

I've also heard from multiple sources that foam doesn't do jack, and am left dumbfounded. I have no idea why there is such a drastic change in the quality of my room's acoustics with nothing but foam, but believe me. It has helped TONS. I won't be taking it down anytime soon, and if I do, it'll be because I have enough dough to buy the real stuff.

So... yeah... Go figure. If you're interested, here's the blog post associated with the audio clip. Forgive the complete lack of any resemblance of good mic positioning techniques in the photos.

 

[grimtraveller]

I like the song....and listening to your test clip, a difference can definitely be heard. The sound in the second part is more muffled.....or rather, the decay and reverberation is much less.
It's interesting to me that so many people praised your mix and drum sound but from what I've been reading and the opinions of many who really know their stuff, your foam pad set up and mix position are kind of a no - no. It tends to suggest that actually, experimentation is the key and there are now so many variables that with some tweaking here and there, there's possibly lots that can work. At the risk of sounding like a nub, perhaps beauty really is in the eye (ear) of the beholder.

 

[PoeticIntensity]

I like the song....and listening to your test clip, a difference can definitely be heard. The sound in the second part is more muffled.....or rather, the decay and reverberation is much less.
It's interesting to me that so many people praised your mix and drum sound but from what I've been reading and the opinions of many who really know their stuff, your foam pad set up and mix position are kind of a no - no. It tends to suggest that actually, experimentation is the key and there are now so many variables that with some tweaking here and there, there's possibly lots that can work. At the risk of sounding like a nub, perhaps beauty really is in the eye (ear) of the beholder.

Thanks for commenting, grimtraveller. Yeah, dude... To me, this HR forum has been golden. It's been a whirlwind of learning since August of last year. Tonight I'm gonna move my room around so my mixing station isn't in the corner.... I'm also saving up for some real acoustic treatment... Also.. To be completely honest, there's a good chance I just got lucky with this song. I'd like to think not, but that may be the case. I'm gonna record another song (or two) with the same guy tomorrow, so I'll probably post that mix next week sometime.... We'll see how it turns out.

Anyway... Thanks for the comment.

 

[jamesduysen]

Dude I really like this. How do you have the vox panned on the chorus part? I'd like to try that sometime.

Is it just a duplicate panned to each side? or melody on one side and harmony on the other?

I like the drums. Real raw and they complement this style well!

Well done!

-jD

 

[grimtraveller]

Thanks for commenting, grimtraveller. Yeah, dude... To me, this HR forum has been golden. It's been a whirlwind of learning since August of last year. Tonight I'm gonna move my room around so my mixing station isn't in the corner.... I'm also saving up for some real acoustic treatment... Also.. To be completely honest, there's a good chance I just got lucky with this song. I'd like to think not, but that may be the case.

Yeah, I joined up in 2005 but I never got reading or involved until December just gone. My mixing 'skills' haven't even made it to average yet ! However, there's so much to pick up from various people here. I've been really encouraged by peoples' mixes. It really has pushed me to strive for the next level. I'm just a hobbyist but I work hard on my sounds now, have bought some actual nearfields and pay attention to things I'd previously let go. Having been a voracious reader over the years, I long ago came to the conclusion that there are many different ways to skin the recording and engineering cat, based on the fact that no two producers or engineers are totally agreed on absolutely everything. I listen to alot of obscure 'vanity' {ie self made}records from the late 60s and 70s and I dig the songs first and foremost. If I'm satisfied with that, then everything else that follows is purely interest, not necessity and as a result, one finds all kinds of techniques being used - many of which are frowned upon in HR.......
I don't think you did "just get lucky" with this song. There are so many approaches, ranging from the 'hear every element clearly' to the 'whatever is in there must support the song' with loads in between. It also helps to no longer be a purist !
I'm just fascinated that the two main elements that people were most positively vocal about happen to be two things that, had you signalled your intentions beforehand, you may have been dissuaded from.

 

[PoeticIntensity]

Dude I really like this. How do you have the vox panned on the chorus part? I'd like to try that sometime.

Is it just a duplicate panned to each side? or melody on one side and harmony on the other?

I like the drums. Real raw and they complement this style well!

Well done!

-jD

Thanks, man! Yeah... The chorus is just the vocalist singing the same part twice, panned. He's a very consistent singer / guitarist, so using each take as a natural stereo chorus effect works really well with him. Thanks for listening!

I'm just fascinated that the two main elements that people were most positively vocal about happen to be two things that, had you signalled your intentions beforehand, you may have been dissuaded from.

Very interesting observation... Causes me to rethink my moving the room around... It definitely is considered "wrong", but at the same time... Maybe I'm used to it? I don't know, but I really, really appreciate the comment. I'd give ya more rep if I could.

Thanks again. Definitely food for thought.

 

[Greg_L]

Don't argue with science and the real world experience of literally thousands of studios and audio experts. You don't want your monitors in a corner, and you don't want overheads just thrown up anywhere. For some reason, your usual drum tracks don't sound like these. At all. So yeah, keep experimenting. Move your stuff around. I think you will be pleased with it.

 

[PoeticIntensity]

Don't argue with science and the real world experience of literally thousands of studios and audio experts. You don't want your monitors in a corner, and you don't want overheads just thrown up anywhere. For some reason, your usual drum tracks don't sound like these. At all. So yeah, keep experimenting. Move your stuff around. I think you will be pleased with it.

Yeah... There's definitely truth to that. It just makes sense to experiment. I'm gonna move my station to the middle of the wall, and FWIW, Greg, the last ido1957 song (You've Got What It Takes) had my overheads using the recorderman configuration, and I really, really like the change in the way the snare sounds... I think you'd agree that it sounds much better than my previous snare sounds (at least in your comment, you didn't say it was dull and lifeless... ) So... Yeah... I'll keep ya'll updated.

The next configuration I'm going to try is a measured spaced-pair. See if I can keep the clarity of my snare, and the added width of the spaced-pair.

Thanks for keepin' it real, Greg.

 

[Greg_L]

Yeah... There's definitely truth to that. It just makes sense to experiment. I'm gonna move my station to the middle of the wall, and FWIW, Greg, the last ido1957 song (You've Got What It Takes) had my overheads using the recorderman configuration, and I really, really like the change in the way the snare sounds... I think you'd agree that it sounds much better than my previous snare sounds (at least in your comment, you didn't say it was dull and lifeless... ) So... Yeah... I'll keep ya'll updated.

The next configuration I'm going to try is a measured spaced-pair. See if I can keep the clarity of my snare, and the added width of the spaced-pair.

Thanks for keepin' it real, Greg.

You're welcome and yeah I do agree. The drums did sound better in that new Ido tune. The snare was much clearer.

 

[Tony-bobs]

I really dig this song. I will be recording my band in the next month, and I hope that we can get something that will sound half this decent! Can't wait to hear the next one!

 

[MMensch]

I came to see what all the fuss was about ... and I had a funny feeling listening to the tune. I think it's the blend of contemporary mixing aesthetic (upfront, bright and clean) and old-school/demo sound (drums with too much room, a very real sense of a non-recording space etc.). And it's not meant as a criticism, I think you struck a fine balance (well, it struck itself I guess, you just made the most of it by making the right decisions in the process), and I love hearing stuff that doesn't sound like anything else. The song also helps - simple, sincere and unpretentious, I think it's going to my mp3 folder.

 

[PoeticIntensity]

I really dig this song. I will be recording my band in the next month, and I hope that we can get something that will sound half this decent! Can't wait to hear the next one!

Thanks for the kudos, Tony. Be sure to post the results of your band's recording!

I came to see what all the fuss was about ... and I had a funny feeling listening to the tune. I think it's the blend of contemporary mixing aesthetic (upfront, bright and clean) and old-school/demo sound (drums with too much room, a very real sense of a non-recording space etc.). And it's not meant as a criticism, I think you struck a fine balance (well, it struck itself I guess, you just made the most of it by making the right decisions in the process), and I love hearing stuff that doesn't sound like anything else. The song also helps - simple, sincere and unpretentious, I think it's going to my mp3 folder.

Sounds like you've been around the block once or twice with audio recording, bro... Thanks for the kudos... I'm trying my best (within my budget) to make my "non-recording space" into a "somewhat okay recording space", but seems like you picked up on that... hehe... No worries, and I appreciate when people who know their stuff give their honest opinions.

Thanks for the comment.