How To Mix Drums?

[dobro]

Yeah...been there done that...but I've found that a pair of M/S overheads and just spot mics on Kick and Snare give me a great sound, and all the flexibility I need for most Pop/Rock/Country/Blues music.

Well, that's pretty much what guys who drum for me use too. The last two mixes with drums I've done had five mics on the kit - kick, snare, stereo overheads, and a room mic. I usually run the kick, snare and room mics up the middle, and then pan the overheads to taste. I bring the panned overheads closer together if I want it to sound more natural and 'rustic', and I pan them hard left and right if I want a big soundstage.

Sure...you may want the HH waaaaaaay over on the left or the Toms split up in strange positions (or something like that) but I go for a "realist" mix in most cases, and I think lots of times if your drum kit isn't working for you to begin with, that's when you need to individual fix-in-the-mix every element of the kit.
Not all....but some guys (and most newbies) put up LOTS of mics up mainly 'cuz they need that safety net...which is OK...I'm just saying that you can get a great drum sound with a basic stereo kit setup.

Doesn't sound like a safety net to me. Sounds like complication.

Oh...and since you are the Mod around here...can you explain how I can get the original quotes that you made of my post along with YOUR quotes when I do a reply???
As you can see in this post...all of the quotes you did of my post…are missing.

Yeah, the quote engine on this site is flawed. If you want to do what you want to do, you have to

1 highlight, copy and paste the whole post that you want to quote into the reply that you want to make

2 hit the quote button for the post you want to reply to

3 and then use quote tags to highlight what you want the way you want it. You can copy and paste the tags if you use the Step 2 procedure.

Yeah, it's a pita. I'll talk to management. They're moving into a tune-up phase right now, I think.

 

[dobro]

Quote:

and so that you can apply different reverb to each element - you'll probably want some verb on snare but not on the kickdrum, for instance.

I totally disagree with this. Try it if you want your drums to sound stupid. I know rules are made to be broken, but unbalanced kits sound bad. Never in real life will you hear a dry kick and some big verby snare. I agree with the concept of seperating each piece for EQ or compression control, but I'd suggest bussing them all to one group track to get realistic reverb and fine tuning. A drumkit is a collection of individual pieces that make up a whole. Treat it like that and win.

Okay, how about this, then? A light verb on the snare, and then run a second verb on the whole drumkit submix. Not a big, verby snare in sight.

 

[dobro]

And c'mon - let's do that mp3 comparison thing in the clinic. It'll be fun.

 

[TeyshaBlue]

If yall wanna hear a GOOD example of minimal mic setup on drums, check out Rami's stuff. He uses 4 mics. Kick, sometimes a snare, and 2 overheads. You'd swear his toms are mic'd, but they aint. He gets a fantastic image from his overheads.

Fuckin' mic voodoo.

 

[Greg_L]

And c'mon - let's do that mp3 comparison thing in the clinic. It'll be fun.

WTF are you talking about? What are we comparing?

 

[dobro]

Drum sounds. I've been working on a mix on and off for a couple of weeks now. It's got drums. You put drums in pretty much everything you do, right?

 

[Greg_L]

Drum sounds. I've been working on a mix on and off for a couple of weeks now. It's got drums. You put drums in pretty much everything you do, right?

Yup. You can't have rock and roll without drums and I'm all about the rock and roll.

Anyway, if you have a song to post, just post the fucker. I don't understand why people always want to compete with me musically.

 

[suprstar]

bcuz it's a boost to their ego if they think they can produce a song as well as you can. In case you didn't konw, you're pretty good at this.....

 

[Greg_L]

bcuz it's a boost to their ego if they think they can produce a song as well as you can. In case you didn't konw, you're pretty good at this.....

Well that's nice and I genuinely appreciate that, but I bet that's not dobro's motive. No, I hurt his feelings somewhere and he wants revenge!

 

[miroslav]

Whoa, I just checked the link in your sig.

Sorry miroslav, but those drums are out of phase, weak, and the kick is barely audible. If you like it like that, rock on, but if those clips on your website are an example of your drum tracking techniques, you need to stop giving drum advice.

You're listening to maybe 2-year old rough “mixes” that I probably should take off the website and replace…but I’ve been too busy. Actually, my entire website hasn’t been updated in over two years!
Just busy with other things.

AFA my finished album...there are no phase issues (I know what I’m hearing on my studio monitors), though I think what you are hearing is the typical phasey quality you get with most MP3 files.
AFA loudness…I don’t particularly mix drums in-your-face, since they are not the center of attention, and my Kick tends to go more into the sub-LF range rather than that in-your-gut thump.
Same things for my bass guitar, I like a fatter, more pillowy bottom-end rather than a real hard/percussive one…though now…you’re getting into subjective mixing decisions.
I thought we were talking about *tracking* setups?
But whatever...you track your way, I'll track mine.

I also never said going minimalist with drums is the "only way to go", so I don’t see how I was being snobby...you're putting those words in my mouth.
My point was that some guys and most newbies will put up every mic in their locker when they mic up a drum kit...and all I'm saying THAT certainly is not the only way to go.
The only thing that stops some newbies is their lack of mics...though I think if they had a dozen...they would use a dozen.
All I’m saying is…start with a minimal setup…work it as far as you can, and then if you need another mic here or there…put it up. I just don’t see that miking every drum in your kit as a go-to way to start a tracking session.

But I'll make sure you get a heads up when my CD is done since you are so eager to critique from a subjective position…that is if you wanna check out the finished product, because that's what matters...not half-baked MP3 files.
I’ll also be happy to check out any finished CD you or anyone else here has available…just send me the links where to find them.

If I’m bored later…I’ll pull up just the drum tracks from one of my finished tunes and maybe toss up a short clip for you…so you can hear the *tracking* aspect of my drum kit…which is what I thought we were originally talking about…not the mixing aspect.

 

[dobro]

Yup. You can't have rock and roll without drums and I'm all about the rock and roll.

Anyway, if you have a song to post, just post the fucker. I don't understand why people always want to compete with me musically.

I don't want to compete, I want to compare. I've put some verb on the snare and the overheads, but not on the kick in this mix. You do your stuff differently, and I'd like to hear the difference. If you don't want to post something new, that's okay - I know where to go to listen to some of your stuff, but I'd like to know what you did in the mix on the drums to make them sound that way.

 

[miroslav]

The last two mixes with drums I've done had five mics on the kit - kick, snare, stereo overheads, and a room mic. I usually run the kick, snare and room mics up the middle, and then pan the overheads to taste. I bring the panned overheads closer together if I want it to sound more natural and 'rustic', and I pan them hard left and right if I want a big soundstage.

Then I misunderstood you...'cuz it sounded like you were talking about a lot more mics than that.
I've just seen some guys put a mic on every drum...plus they're also looking to mic the bottom heads too!
I'm not saying a real seasoned pro can't get away with that...but IMO, a more minimalist mic setup give you less headaches later on.

With a stereo OH setup...I let that be the main kit sound...and the other spot mics just reinforce that rather than doing their own thing.

With the M/S overheads...my drum panning is set during tracking...though yeah, if I wanted to tighten or spread the stereo image I could do it real easy and also get away with it quite nicely with the M/S stereo tracks by decoding the stereo pair...but I usually just leave them as-is.

Doesn't sound like a safety net to me. Sounds like complication.

Then I guess we agree...lots of mics = complication.

 

[Greg_L]

If I’m bored later…I’ll pull up just the drum tracks from one of my finished tunes and maybe toss up a short clip for you…so you can hear the *tracking* aspect of my drum kit…which is what I thought we were originally talking about…not the mixing aspect.

An out of phase snare is a tracking problem, not a mixing problem.

 

[Greg_L]

I don't want to compete, I want to compare. I've put some verb on the snare and the overheads, but not on the kick in this mix. You do your stuff differently, and I'd like to hear the difference. If you don't want to post something new, that's okay - I know where to go to listen to some of your stuff, but I'd like to know what you did in the mix on the drums to make them sound that way.

I'll have something new up within the week.

 

[dobro]

Okay. When you put it up, describe briefly how you tracked and mixed the drums, okay? I want to learn how to do this stuff better.

 

[miroslav]

An out of phase snare is a tracking problem, not a mixing problem.

I thought you were commenting on the Kick...because I track the kick miked from the inside and I know enough to reverse the phase so that it's in sync with the M/S overheads...though on those old rough mixes, it's possible I didn't do that, and I just tossed them up as-is.
I usually check final phase relationships in the DAW during the final mix stage.

But the Snare...that is not out of phase. It‘s spot miked from the top, same direction/angle as the M/S pair. Actually they are almost directly over the snare.
I still think it's the MP3 "sound" that you're hearing...or maybe the slight delays, but that's not the same as what is normally considered out-of-phase (as-in 180 degrees).
I don't generally buy into that notion that all tracks must be perfectly lined up when using multiple mics on one source.
I know some folks will put up a room mic 12' back...but then line it up perfectly with the close-up mic when they get in the DAW...but to me, that's not the natural sounds you tracked....and you do lose some of that room vibe when you line up everything perfectly.

Again…those are subjective mixing decisions…not tracking techniques.

 

[Greg_L]

There's not enough kick in those mixes to comment on. I'm talking out of phase. As in, the snare is off-center, thin, and weak sounding. The cymbals are overly washy, and sound doubled from right to left. The entire balance of the kit leans to one side. That's a result from poorly placed overhead/room mics.

 

[miroslav]

I'm talking out of phase. As in, the snare is off-center, thin, and weak sounding.

Off-center and out of phase or two different terms describing two different things.

YES...my Snare is NOT in the center...but that's my choice.
Neither is the Kick. The center of my whole kit is intentionally set to be between the Snare and Kick...again, my choice.
So the Kick is panned at about 11:00 and the snare at about 1:00.
My Bass is also not in the center...rather it sits next to the Snare and balances out the Kick on the opposite side
I don't buy it that the Snare, Kick and Bass need to be in the center.

Again...you are continuing to talk about mixing decisions...NOT tracking or miking techniques.
And what you said earlier about phase being a tracking problem...that's only in some cases.
Yeah...if you have a mic on the bottom and also top of a drum…you would want during tracking to account for that by inverting one of the mics (usually the bottom) so that they are both the same.
But there are times when non-180 degree phase issues are dealt with or introduced during editing/mixing (and besides, 180 degree stuff is more often just a full reversal of mic polarity in order to correct it.
But if you have a pair of overheads or a room mic...ANY other mic on the kit will be to some degree out of phase relative to them. But you can't really correct it during tracking other than by placing every mic in the same exact spot. The drums sit where they sit…you can’t really move them around just to suit a mic setup.
Of course, if you really feel the need to “fix” it all...you can line up every mic track in the DAW...but, that's a subjective mixing decision and not a must-do.

The cymbals are overly washy, and sound doubled from right to left. The entire balance of the kit leans to one side. That's a result from poorly placed overhead/room mics.

I use mostly paper thin cymbals...I prefer a softer/smoother cymbal sound.
There is no doubling of the cymbals from left to right...I don't use any artifical delays or track-doubling for the kit....so I'm starting to question what it is you are actually hearing.
(Again...IMO...it's that "MP3 sound"....).

I'm curious...in your opinion, is a proper kit always placed up the middle and equal in level L-to-R?
Most kits ARE imbalanced L-to-Right.
The HH is off to the side...the big floor tom is WAY off to the side..etc...especially when you place the Kick or Snare in the middle of the mix. Which is why I choose to “shift” the whole kit and place the middle between the Kick and Snare.
Maybe to you that sounds like the kit "leans" to one side because the Snare isn’t also in the middle of the mix...but I find that it actually fits better that way in the overall mix...and the real benefit is the small window left open in the center of the mix for the lead elements.

But again...these are all mixing decisions.
I'm not sure if you are just critiquing my music…or the notion that a minimalist mic setup is a good/valid way to go...which is what this discussion was about originally....?
I don't care if you don't like my music or my mixing decisions...but I know a simple mic setup for a drum kit is a very valid approach used by many.

 

[Greg_L]

I aint reading all that.

Bottom line - The drum tracks on your website are very poor. I'm not talking about mixing decisions, or symmetry with the kit. I'm talking about how you tracked them. That's just the way it is. I've recorded enough bad drum tracks on my own to know what I'm hearing. Rationalize and defend it all you want. They're not good. Hopefully your CD will be better.

 

[miroslav]

Yeah...OK...don't read it...just beat the same drum.

I have no need to rationalize or defend what I already said were rough mixes from two years ago. Though you only continue to critique them and you avoid discussing most of the other points.

Yeah...OK...whatever.

My drums suck...you win.

I'll let you know when my album is on CD Baby. Feel free to pick up a copy if you want to hear the finished product and then critique away.....