Do you know the note names on the fretboard?

[chamelious]

Has anyone ever noticed the people who dont know theory are a lot more hostile about their way of doing things than the people that do?

IMO, there is no right way to do music. If you want to be a professional musician, chances are you are going to need music theory. You don't walk into a studio session, and when the producer asks you for improvisation in E phyrgian dominant, say errr is it ok if i just use E blues scale.

Personally i'll take all the theory i can get, as i find it increasingly easy to write music the more i find out. And ultimately that's the point for me, getting the music out of my head, into the audiences ears.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

Any two or more notes at the same time is a real chord. Nothing escapes the omnipotent realm of music theory.

Actually [drew puts on his pedantic smarty-pants hat] in western theory any three notes played simultaneously, a triad, is a chord. Two notes at a time, a diad, aren't generally considered chords in the system of tertiary harmony. [drew takes off his pendantic smarty-pants hat]

Boobies.

 

[muttley600]

Any two or more notes at the same time is a real chord. Nothing escapes the omnipotent realm of music theory.

Technically you need three notes to construct a chord so three or more. Two notes would be an interval, two intervals would be a chord so long as one of the intervals is not an octave or unison.

 

[Greg_L]

Has anyone ever noticed the people who dont know theory are a lot more hostile about their way of doing things than the people that do?
.

That's because theory people are semen gargling douchebags.

 

[muttley600]

Has anyone ever noticed the people who dont know theory are a lot more hostile about their way of doing things than the people that do?

IMO, there is no right way to do music. If you want to be a professional musician, chances are you are going to need music theory. You don't walk into a studio session, and when the producer asks you for improvisation in, say errr is it ok if i just use E blues scale.

Personally i'll take all the theory i can get, as i find it increasingly easy to write music the more i find out. And ultimately that's the point for me, getting the music out of my head, into the audiences ears.

Much as I loves me some theory, if I walked into a session and a producer asked me for an improvisation in E phyrgian dominant I'd walk right out again regardless of whether I could oblige or not.

 

[muttley600]

Actually [drew puts on his pedantic smarty-pants hat] in western theory any three notes played simultaneously, a triad, is a chord. Two notes at a time, a diad, aren't generally considered chords in the system of tertiary harmony. [drew takes off his pendantic smarty-pants hat]

Boobies.

Drew mate that ain't smarty pants stuff that's basic gerg level stuff.

 

[Greg_L]

Drew mate that ain't smarty pants stuff that's basic gerg level stuff.

Yeah, even I knew that. Seriously.

 

[muttley600]

Yeah, even I knew that. Seriously.

I had faith in you all along.

Now you're gonna tell me an interval is the gap between two drum beats aren't you.

 

[Greg_L]

I had faith in you all along.

Now you're gonna tell me an interval is the gap between two drum beats aren't you.

There are no gaps between my drum beats.

 

[chamelious]

Much as I loves me some theory, if I walked into a session and a producer asked me for an improvisation in E phyrgian dominant I'd walk right out again regardless of whether I could oblige or not.

Even if the CD you were sessioning on was entitled "yngwie style wank not played by yngwie"?

 

[muttley600]

Even if the CD you were sessioning on was entitled "yngwie style wank not played by yngwie"?

Especially then.

 

[Greg_L]

Has anyone ever noticed the people who dont know theory are a lot more hostile about their way of doing things than the people that do?

IMO, there is no right way to do music. If you want to be a professional musician, chances are you are going to need music theory. You don't walk into a studio session, and when the producer asks you for improvisation in E phyrgian dominant, say errr is it ok if i just use E blues scale.

Personally i'll take all the theory i can get, as i find it increasingly easy to write music the more i find out. And ultimately that's the point for me, getting the music out of my head, into the audiences ears.

Aren't you the guy who's drummer can't play to a click or something like that? Funny how a guy so hellbent on theory would partner up with a shitty drummer.

 

[joeym]

what......those little dots have NAMES?????

 

[muttley600]

what......those little dots have NAMES?????

They sure do.

This post made me piss myself laughing when I read it originally. It's worth quoting again just to put this whole thing in perspective.

Learn to play guitar and enjoy it. Learn some theory and enjoy it. If the two match any time that's good too but not essential.

Anyway here's that post.

Cool. No problem. The answer to the first question is...

Since the tone Dave is the tonic, the chords ROOT name is Dave, and since Dave is the Seventh tone in a diatonic scale, it hence becomes a:
DAVE HALF DIMINSIHED chord.

Since only human names were applied to unknown tones, we have no way of knowing a relative known pitch, such as 440 hz applied to a given tone.
If we ARBITRARILY apply 440hz to the tone Dave, we now have a relative position in a Chromatic scale to start from. Since "I" applied certain intervals to a FEW of the given names, I can now mathamatically deduce their frequency and interval distance, that is, IF we apply their relative pitches. That is, IF, we use EQUAL TEMPERED intonation whereby the scale(chromatic)
s determined by the formula:
fn = f0 * (a)n
where
f0 = the frequency of one fixed note which must be defined. A common choice is setting the DAVE above middle C on a piano, (DAVE4) at f0 = 440 Hz.
n = the number of half steps away from the fixed note you are. If you are at a higher note, n is positive. If you are on a lower note, n is negative.
fn = the frequency of the note n half steps away.
a = (2)1/12 = the twelth root of 2 = the number which when multiplied by itself 12 times equals 2 = 1.059463094359...

The wavelength of the sound for the notes is found from Wn = c/fn
where W is the wavelength and c is the speed of sound. The speed of sound depends on temperature, but is approximately 345 m/s at "room temperature."



Now we have a way to establish the frequency of all 12 tones in ONE OCTAVE of an Equal Tempered Chromatic Scale. However, we only have applied a name to one tone...ie...DAVE. Now lets figure out the rest. So far, our GIVEN tones and intervals from 440hz are as follows:
Sally(m3rd), Suzan(b5), Ebeneezer(b7) and Dave(tonic)

For instance

Since all Chromatic pitches or tones are a HALF STEP(one fret), or an interval of a minor second, and our first pitch is 440hz, it is relatively easy to calculate the pitches of ALL 12 of the Chromatic tones, which is the same as applying a pitch to each fret on the fretboard. Since 440hz is a given, and 440hz is above middle C on a piano, and assuming this "C" is the fourth
octave, then this C=C4, then using Equal Tempered tuning, the rest of the pitches can be defined thus.

Examples using DAVE = 440 Hz:
I have already applied the name "SALLY" to an interval of a Min3(b3) above Dave.
Since a Min3 is 3 halfsteps(3 frets) above a given note, and our given is 440hz, then it follows that our Min3 is=C4(above the middle C on a piano, and "our" name for this tone is "SALLY", it

follows that Sally5 =C5, as well as middle C (C4/Sally4)on a piano.
Hence
Sally5 = the Sally an octave above middle Sally. This is 3 half steps above Dave4 and so the frequency is
f3 = 440 * (1.059463..)3 = 523.3 Hz
If your calculator does not have the ability to raise to powers, then use the fact that
(1.059463..)3 = (1.059463..)*(1.059463..)*(1.059463..)
That is, you multiply it by itself 3 times.

Middle Sally is 9 half steps below Dave4 and the frequency is:
f -9 = 440 * (1.05463..)-9 = 261.6 Hz
If you don't have powers on your calculator, remember that the negative sign on the power means you divide instead of multiply. For this example, you divide by (1.05463..) 9 times.

Using the same logic, our "Susan", being a b5, is 6 half steps(six frets) above DAVE4, and DAVE4=440hz

Now, let me apply "our" names to the calculated frequencies. However, since we only have 5 names, out of a possible 12 chromatic tones, then we must come up with 7 more names. I will arbitrarily apply some. Maybe you can figure out where they are on the fretboard. Here is a clue.
DAVE4 is on the skinnyest string at the 5th fret. . Also, for the sake of this chart, I will abbreviate the Names as follows.

DAVE=Dv (=A note)
SALLY=S (=C)
SUSAN=Sn1/Sn2 (=Eb/D#) Note that Sally uses S, and now we have another name beginning with "S", soooooooo...
since, standard notation requires the use of b's and #'s to denote
ENHARMONIC tones, the use of SUSAN requires TWO SUSANS!!! fuck! And since these enharmonic tones are based on the tone below and above, now we are REALLY confusing the shit out of nameing these tones...ie. If the tone Sn1 is actually a sharped note of the tone below it, now it becomes something else. Fuck. See below.

Ebeneezer=E (=G note)

For the sake coherence, I would like to pick the rest of the names using the standard "note" names as the beginning letter of the rest. Unfortunately, this becomes difficult as we have already used SIMILAR names. Sooooooooooooo...

George=G= fuck, G note is already defined by Ebeneezer and is named (E) which is what I was going to use for the note "E", which I was going to define by....Ethan, BUT NOW I CAN"T

FUCK! FUCK! FUCK!

Ok, nevermind, lets do this:

SALLY=C note

FRANK1/FRANK2=C#/Db note......SHIT! That means C#(SALLY#) is the same as Db(BILLb) which is the same as FRANK! fuck.......

BILL=D note

SUSAN=D#/Eb note......SHIT! That means D#(Bill#) is the same as Eb(CAROLEb) which is the same as SUSAN! fuck.......

CAROLE=E note

MIKE=F note

LISA=F#/Gb ..SHIT! That means F#(MIKE#) is the same as Gb(EBENEEZERb) which is the same as LISA! fuck.......

EBENEEZER=G note

LINDA=G#/Ab.....SHIT! That means G#(EBENEEZER#) is the same as Ab(DAVEb) which is the same as....good grief....LINDA!!....fuck me

DAVE=A

RONDA=A#/Bb......crap, here we go again. This means A#(DAVE#) is the same as Bb(HOLLYb) which is the.same as......fuck it.

HOLLY=B

Now lets build SEVEN OCTAVES of these 12 notes.

Note

Frequency (Hz)​

SALLY0/C0​

16.35​

FRANK0/C#0/Db0​

17.32​

BILL0/D0​

18.35​

SUSAN0/D#0/Eb0​

19.45​

CAROLE0/E0​

20.60​

MIKE0/F0​

21.83​

LISA0/F#0/Gb0​

23.12​

EBENEEZER0/G0​

24.50​

LINDA0/G#0/Ab0​

25.96​

DAVE0/A0​

27.50​

RONDA0/A#0/Bb0​

29.14​

HOLLY0/B0​

30.87​

SALLY1/C1​

32.70​

FRANK0/C#1/Db1​

34.65​

BILL1/D1​

36.71​

SUSAN1/D#1/Eb1​

38.89​

CAROLE1/E1​

41.20​

MIKE1/F1​

43.65​

LISA1/F#1/Gb1​

46.25​

EBENEEZER0/G1​

49.00​

LINDA1/G#1/Ab1​

51.91​

DAVE1/A1​

55.00​

RONDA1/A#1/Bb1​

58.27​

HOLLY1/B1​

61.74​

SALLY2/C2​

65.41​

FRANK2/C#2/Db2F​

69.30​

BILL2/D2​

73.42​

SUSAN2/D#2/Eb2​

77.78​

CAROLE2/E2​

82.41​

MIKE2/F2​

87.31​

LISA2/F#2/Gb2​

92.50​

EBENEEZER2/G2​

98.00​

LINDA2/G#2/Ab2​

103.83​

RONDA2/A#2/Bb2​

116.54​

HOLLY1/B2​

123.47​

SALLY3/C3​

130.81​

FRANK3/C#3/Db3​

138.59​

BILL3/D3​

146.83​

SUSAN3/D#3/Eb3​

155.56​

CAROLE3/E3​

164.81​

MIKE3/F3​

174.61​

LISA3/F#3/Gb3​

185.00​

EBENEEZER3/G3​

196.00​

LINDA3/G#3/Ab3​

207.65​

DAVE3/A3​

220.00​

RONDA3/A#3/Bb3​

233.08​

HOLLY3/B3​

246.94​

SALLY4/C4​

261.63​

FRANK4/C#4/Db4​

277.18​

BILL4/D4​

293.66​

SUSAN4/D#4/Eb4​

311.13​

CAROLE4/E4​

329.63​

MIKE4/F4​

349.23​

LISA4/F#4/Gb4​

369.99​

EBENEEZER4/G4​

392.00​

LINDA4/G#4/Ab4​

415.30​

DAVE4/A4​

440.00​

RONDA4/A#/Bb4​

466.16​

HOLLY4/B4​

493.88​

SALLY5/C5​

523.25​

FRANK5/C#5/Db5​

554.37​

BILL5/D5​

587.33​

SUSAN5/D#5/Eb5​

622.25​

CAROLE5/E5​

659.26​

MIKE5/F5​

698.46​

LISA5/F#5/Gb5​

739.99​

EBENEEZER5/G5​

783.99​

LINDA5/G#5/Ab5​

830.61​

DAVE/A5​

880.00​

RONDA5/A#5/Bb5​

932.33​

HOLLY5/B5​

987.77​

SALLY6/C6​

1046.50​

FRANK6/C#6/Db6​

1108.73​

BILL6/D6​

1174.66​

SUSAN6/D#6/Eb6​

1244.51​

CAROLE6/E6​

1318.51​

MIKE6/F6​

1396.91​

LISA6/F#6/Gb6​

1479.98​

EBENEEZER6/G6​

1567.98​

LINDA6/G#6/Ab6​

1661.22​

DAVE6/A6​

1760.00​

RONDA6/A#6/Bb6​

1864.66​

HOLLY5/B6​

1975.53​

SALLY7/C7​

2093.00​

FRANK7/C#7/Db7​

2217.46​

BILL7/D7​

2349.32​

SUSAN7/D#7/Eb7​

2489.02​

CAROLE7/E7​

2637.02​

MIKE7/F7​

2793.83​

LISA7/F#7/Gb7​

2959.96​

EBENEEZER7/G7​

3135.96​

LINDA7/G#7/Ab7​

3322.44​

DAVE7/A7​

3520.00​

RONDA7/A#/Bb7​

3729.31​

HOLLY7/B7​

3951.07​

SALLY8/C8​

4186.01​

FRANK8/C#8/Db8​

4434.92​

BILL8/D8​

4698.64​

SUSAN8/D#8/Eb8​

4978.03​

Now we have a 7 octaves of chromatic scales.
So, to answer the second question:
"but the real question is when played as a second inversion, what key is it in and what scale tone 7th chord does it become?"

IS:

Given the formula for a HALF DIMISHED chord is: 1 b3 b5 b7 based on its OWN Diatonic scale. Since the (1) is "A"(DAVE), build a Diatonic scale in the key of DAVE.

Which means, based on the formula for a Diatonic scale in intervalsW= Whole tone/1/2=Half Tone)

W W 1/2 W W W 1/2​

In the Key of A gives the following notes:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7​

A B C# D E F# G#​

OR

DAVE, HOLLY, FRANK, BILL, CAROLE, LISA, and LINDA

Now, flat the 3rd, 5th and 7th, and you get the following tones, which make up a HALF DIMINISHED or Min7b5 chord.

DAVE, SALLY, SUSAN and EBENEEZER.

Now, given that scale tone Chords are built from the formulas as follows:

1=MAJ7 1 3 5 7 Intervals(MAJ3rd,Min3rd, MAJ3rd)
2=MAJ7 1 3 5 7 Intervals(MAJ3rd,Min3rd, MAJ3rd)
3=Min7 1 b3 5 b7 Intervals(Min3rd, MAJ3rd, Min3rd)
4=MAJ7 1 3 5 7 Intervals(MAJ3rd,Min3rd, MAJ3rd)
5=Dom7 1 3 5 b7 Intervals(MAJ3rd,Min3rd, Min3rd)
6=Min7 1 b3 5 b7 Intervals(Min3rd, MAJ3rd, Min3rd)
7=HalfDim. 1 b3 b5 b7 Intervals(Min3rd, Min3rd,MAJ3rd)

then it follows that a HALF DIMISHED is built on the 7th tone of a Diatonic Scale. BTW, these are called CHORD QUALITIES.

Therefore, what Key does an "A"(DAVE) Half Dimished Chord belong to? Working backwards.
1/2 W W W 1/2 W W
7. A(DAVE)
6. G#/Ab(LINDA)
5. F#/Gb(LISA)
4. D#/Eb(SUSAN)
3. D(BILL)
2. C(SALLY)
1. A#/Bb(RONDA)

VOILA! An "A"or DAVE Half Diminshed chord is the 7th scale tone chord in the key of A#/Bb, or the KEY of RONDA!

Now, invert the chord

b3 b5 b7 1 which gives you the same tones in another scale tone 7th chord in ANOTHER KEY. But what chord and what Key?

Since the interval distance from a 1 to a b3 is a min 3rd, and the distance from a b3 to a b5 is a MAJ 3rd, and the distance from a b5 to a b7 is a MAJ 3rd, it would seem that when inverted, the intervals might match one of the other scale tone chords...maybe?

Apply a little CHORD ANALYSIS. Use the same tones against another Scale tone 7th Chord QUALITY.
Since we can eliminate a Half Diminished since its already been defined,
lets try a Major. IF, the same tones, A, C, Eb, G(ie-DAVE, SALLY, SUSAN and EBENEEZER.) were applied to a MAJ chord, they would be

1?
3=A(DAVE)
5=C
7=Eb oooops....the interval distance from a 5th to a 7th is a maj third. From C to Eb is a minor third....it doesn't work.. besides, where does the G note fit in?

Next, try a Min. chord

1?
b3=A
5=C ....hmmm, oooops....the interval distance from a b3rd to a 5th is a maj third. From A to C is a minor third....it doesn't work..besides, where does the G note fit in?
b7=Eb

Well, lets try a dominant

1?
3=A
5=C
b7=Eb

Since a Dominant chord has the following intervals...MAJ3rd, Min3rd, MAJ3rd, and from A to C is a Min3rd, and from C to Eb is a MAJ3rd, we are half way there. However, where does that FUCKING "G" note fit? Well, lets see. If 1 to 3 is a MAJ3rd, then from what note to "A" is a MAJ3rd? LOOK at the diatonic scale formula.

W W 1/2 W W W 1/2


Well, lets see. If "A"(DAVE) is the 3rd tone, and its two WHOLE STEPS from 1, working backwards, the second note in the scale would be a WHOLE STEP backwards, or ...VOILA! the "G" tone, or EBENEEZER! Now, working backwards again, one WHOLE STEP...VOILA! The 1 becomes...yup, you got it....."F". But where does the "G" fit in????

Well, count up from 1 through TWO Octaves and this is what you have

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1 9 10 11 12 13 1 or

F G A A#/Bb C D E F G A A#/Bb C D....E and F

If you count up to the 9th note, what do you have? Yup...."G"

Now lets look at that Dominant formula again.

1
3
5
b7

Now add the 9th and you have a Dominant 9th chord

1=F(Mike)
3=A(Dave)
5=C(Sally)
b7=Eb(SUSAN)
9=G(EBENEEZER)

And there you have it. An "A" Half Diminished Chord is the same as a second inversion of an F dom9th Chord....and since Dominant Chords are the Fifth Scale tone Chord in a Diatonic Scale, and F is the 5th of Bb, it is in the Key of....VOILA!! A#/Bb OR the Key of RONDA.

Have a nice day.
fitZ

 

[Lt. Bob]

Actually [drew puts on his pedantic smarty-pants hat] in western theory any three notes played simultaneously, a triad, is a chord. Two notes at a time, a diad, aren't generally considered chords in the system of tertiary harmony. [drew takes off his pendantic smarty-pants hat]

Boobies.

beat me to it ..............







boobies.

 

[joeym]

They sure do.

This post made me piss myself laughing when I read it originally. It's worth quoting again just to put this whole thing in perspective.

Learn to play guitar and enjoy it. Learn some theory and enjoy it. If the two match any time that's good too but not essential.

Anyway here's that post.

OK then, EBENEEZER is my chord....!

 

[chamelious]

Aren't you the guy who's drummer can't play to a click or something like that? Funny how a guy so hellbent on theory would partner up with a shitty drummer.

I know you have a lot of respect around here so i won't bother rising to this.

 

[philbagg]

Practice/obsession did it for me

 

[Victory Pete]

Yes I do.
VP

 

[dkelley]

violin was my first instrument at age 4 (well, after piano at age 1), and I learned to read and write music before I could read letters and words. so I come from a maybe different learning curve...

on violin and piano it's all fully instant and automatic, like being multilingual, I actually think in the language of those instruments and the note names come to me as fast as the actual fingering for the desired pitch I hear in my head. Especially for violin which became my main instrument.

So adding bass guitar as my next (self taught) instrument at age 13, I was reading bass clef and translating the note names wrong to the bass because I thought of the bass note names as violin string note names to start out with. I did that on purpose so I wouldn't go insane, although it only lasted a week or two before I started going "ok, that's the E string, it's in the opposite place to a violin E string, so I really have to re think this... count up to G, that's an F down there" and so on.

but after a few months I was starting to think automatically of those notes in the first 5 or so frets. I still do, it's instant on bass and almost instant on guitar (on the first 4 strings only, after that I have to think about it because I do alternate tunings etc on guitar that don't make sense to me or to most other people LoL).

But, above the 5th or so fret I have to start to think about it. At times when I've played for hours every day in bands my note name picking out has improved a lot, but I've lost some of that again as I have done less and less full time playing over the past decade or so.

so I put down the 1-2 seconds thing. sometimes it's longer (those times when I'm counting up the fingerboard LoL). sometimes it's instant. but typically up high I cheat by counting up/down from the octave marks and by having a few of those notes memorized by position/marker and I work from there by finger position, so 1-2 seconds is pretty typical.

I'll tell ya - 1-2 seconds is a really long time when you're sight reading or being told specifically what to play on a $$/hr basis as a session player.... so it's something I'm working on improving these days.