Phase: WTF?

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BeniRose

BeniRose

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While I'm not a super n00b, there is one things about recording that's always perplexed me, and that's phasing, particularly issues of phasing when recording a drumset. I've had a lot of problems in the past with phasing issues on my overheads, and I know that there's rules about how to set them up to avoid this.

Now hear me out, it's not the issue of phasing I don't get. I understand sound moves slowly, and when it leaves a source, if it hits two mics half a wavelength behind each other, the phases will cancel each other out. However, I don't get it in application.

If I close mic my drums AND put up overheads, why aren't my close mics and overheads out of phase with each other. Or if I make sure the overheads are the same distance from the snare (which I hear is the proper way to avoid phase) why wouldn't my floor tom be out of phase in the overheads? I just don't get phase the application of phasing issues. I feel like it's some sort of voodoo magic! Can someone clear this up for me?
 
Really?! No one's going to clear this up for me?! I refuse to believe no one out of all you super smart people knows the answer to this.
 
While I'm not a super n00b, there is one things about recording that's always perplexed me, and that's phasing, particularly issues of phasing when recording a drumset. I've had a lot of problems in the past with phasing issues on my overheads, and I know that there's rules about how to set them up to avoid this.

Now hear me out, it's not the issue of phasing I don't get. I understand sound moves slowly, and when it leaves a source, if it hits two mics half a wavelength behind each other, the phases will cancel each other out. However, I don't get it in application.

If I close mic my drums AND put up overheads, why aren't my close mics and overheads out of phase with each other. Or if I make sure the overheads are the same distance from the snare (which I hear is the proper way to avoid phase) why wouldn't my floor tom be out of phase in the overheads? I just don't get phase the application of phasing issues. I feel like it's some sort of voodoo magic! Can someone clear this up for me?

Dont forget that frequency and amplitude play their parts in this dance between mics. The tom mic is going to be way hotter than the over head, and much more saturated at a particular frequency as well. There is always some type of phase cancellation occuring in a mic set up uness the signal is pure and monolithic..but most of it escapes our notice unless you're really sensitive to that.
 
For the first time in ten years of recording, I got phase cancellation the other night. Two mics on the guitar amp, each tracked to its own mono channel. I caught it in playback - the sound was really wimpy. Mute one channel, and the solo track was way louder.

I just turned the plug around for one of the preamps and the problem disappeared.
 
I know where you are coming from! Understanding the theory is very easy, but applying that theory to your benefit can be a bit hit-and-miss.

Before I start, I've just had a quick google this looks like a good reference page for the stuff I don't explain well or get wrong :)...
http://www.recordingeq.com/articles/321eq.html


When you visualise 'two waves cancelling', I'm fairly sure you are probably picturing two perfectly superpositioned sine waves that completely null each other. This is fair enough when trying to explain the basics of wave superposition and constructive/destructive interference, but in reality things are rarely as simple as perfect sine waves :)

Also, just for transparency I'll point out that phase is an offset in the time domain. Polarity (which is often slightly confused with phase) is related but not techincally the same. With a sine wave, a 180' phase shift and an inversion in polarity will have the same effect, but as things get more complicated its important to remember the difference. Judging from you talking about offsets in wavelengths I believe you already understand this though.

Right, there are a number of things to think about:

Firstly (though from reading your post I'm sure that you already understand this) there are varying 'degrees' of phase (no pun intended!)... going back to our perfect sine waves, yes they will completely cancel if in antiphase (completely out of phase, 1π radian or 180' out of phase, separated by ½λ, etc), but consider the result if they are, lets say, 90' out of phase. Waves don't always have to completely cancel - there can be varying levels of interference depending on how incoherent the waves are.

Now I'm going to try (yet again) to get away from the simple sine wave descriptions :)... Next, you mention your understanding of the sound hitting one mic "half a wavelength behind the other", but remember that the wavelength is proportional to frequency (λ = v/f). If you have a complex sound covering many frequencies, the half-a-wavelength thinking goes out the window.

Really, whenever two complex audio signals are summed there is more that likely going to be some descructive as well as constructive interference. Again, this doesn't have to mean complete cancellation and it doesn't have to be audible either.


So, on to how this applies in the real world.

Looking at your drum mic example with the snare to begin with; the close mic and the overheads generally pick up a very different sound of the snare. You are not picking up anywhere near the same signal from the two different mics and you would never be able to get them to null. If the snare mic is badly out of phase with the overheads, its usually the low-mids that are affected and and the snare looses the 'punch' of its bottom end. If the signals are that badly out of phase then its possible a wiring problem that put the polarity out to begin with and flipping the polarity would probably sort a lot of the problem. Anywhere inbetween though and you need to be looking at your mic positioning.

When setting up overheads, I usually use a coincident stereo pair (where the mic capsules are close to each other). Setting them up like this is an easy way of (almost) guaranteeing more coherency between the two signals. In an XY setupd, both mic capsules are likely to be more-or-less the same distance from each source of the kit.

As soon as you move the mics apart into a spaced pair setup, you introduce differences in distances between kit pieces and the two mics. Its not uncommon to use a piece of string to check that both overheads are at least the same distance from the snare as each other, even if not with other parts of the kit. Don't get me wrong, AB overheads can sound great, but you can face more problems.

Whilst there is no "right or wrong" time to use different mic positions, I usually use spaced-pair overheads when doing more heavy rock / metal stuff, where the overheads become more like 'cymbal mics' and most of the snare sound comes from the close mic and/or triggers. In this situation the spaced pair can give a nice wide stereo separation between each side of the kit.

However for many situations you'll want to get a lot of the snare sound from the overheads - this is where phase coherency between the overheads and the spot mic is more important.


And when positioning mics, the three-to-one-rule is a good one to follow:
This rule states that for every unit of distance away from the sound source, your mics should be at least three units apart. For instance, if your mics are six inches away from the source then they should be eighteen inches apart. If they're 1 foot from the source they should be three feet apart. This will keep you out of phase problems when close miking.


Right, I've run out of steam. I've missed loads out of that answer and not a lot of it is written well or makes sense, but its a start and I'm sure someone else can chip in :)
 
While I'm not a super n00b, there is one things about recording that's always perplexed me, and that's phasing, particularly issues of phasing when recording a drumset. I've had a lot of problems in the past with phasing issues on my overheads, and I know that there's rules about how to set them up to avoid this.

Now hear me out, it's not the issue of phasing I don't get. I understand sound moves slowly, and when it leaves a source, if it hits two mics half a wavelength behind each other, the phases will cancel each other out. However, I don't get it in application.

If I close mic my drums AND put up overheads, why aren't my close mics and overheads out of phase with each other. Or if I make sure the overheads are the same distance from the snare (which I hear is the proper way to avoid phase) why wouldn't my floor tom be out of phase in the overheads? I just don't get phase the application of phasing issues. I feel like it's some sort of voodoo magic! Can someone clear this up for me?

Here is a recording of a tom using three mics. They are set up the way many folks record a drum set. I zoomed in on the beginning of the waveforms so you could see what occurs.

Mic/Track #1 - Overhead - about 36" above the tom.
Mic/Track #2 - On the top head.
Mic/Track #3 - On the bottom head.

Notice in the picture that the Overhead mic (track #1) is about 2 or 3 milliseconds late due to being farther away from the drum head. It may be out of phase depending on the dominant frequency. To correct this we may need to slide the OH track left about 2 milliseconds or so until the kit takes on a more coherent or clear sound. The idea is to get the "ups" and "downs" to agree with the other tracks as often as possible.

The bottom mic is out of phase with the top due to pointing in an opposite direction. To correct this simply reverse the phase in our recording software.

mp3 that is original/unchanged, (all three tracks flat and dry)

mp3 with bottom mic flipped/reversed (all three tracks flat and dry)

mp3 with OH track dragged left 2ms (all three tracks flat and dry)

Moving the OH track, in this case, didn't offer much difference in sound. But it may have made more of a difference with the snare, kick, and cymbals all playing.
 

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