how often do you layer a mix?

[dobro]

Up until last week, I've applied EQ to each track in the mix separately, never in a submix, and I've never put EQ on the master bus. If I didn't like the way the mix sounded, I went back and tweaked individual tracks till I got it where I wanted it.

But last week, the submix approach seemed the only way to solve a problem I had in a particular mix I was working on. In the end I had three submixes with separate EQ settings on each, and a fourth group of tracks with no submix; I even put an EQ on the master bus. Anyway, when I saw how much control it gives me over the mix, I figured I'd use it way more often.

Question: you've all been doing it for years, right?

 

[gecko zzed]

Question: you've all been doing it for years, right?

No. In fact I do what you describe first. I EQ each track (if necessary) in the context of a mix.

However, sometimes I have an EQ over a subgroup, particularly if that subgroup is a set of complementary tracks (like backing vocals) or alternative tracks (like different lead vocal takes) for which I want the same adjustments for all. But then I don't have any EQ on the tracks within the subgroup.

I rarely have EQ on the master bus.

 

[RAMI]

No. In fact I do what you describe first. I EQ each track (if necessary) in the context of a mix.

However, sometimes I have an EQ over a subgroup, particularly if that subgroup is a set of complementary tracks (like backing vocals) or alternative tracks (like different lead vocal takes) for which I want the same adjustments for all. But then I don't have any EQ on the tracks within the subgroup.

I rarely have EQ on the master bus.

I'm the same.

But what I'm wondering is: What does title of this thread have to do with the first post? Layering??? EQ'ing???? What are we talking about???

 

[gecko zzed]

I'm the same.

But what I'm wondering is: What does title of this thread have to do with the first post? Layering??? EQ'ing???? What are we talking about???

I'm guessing that if you EQ a track, then EQ a subgroup, then EQ a master, you have three "layers" of EQ.

I'm feeling that that is a good way to get yourselve tangled up in knots.

 

[Waltz Mastering]

Question: you've all been doing it for years, right?

I would imagine that most of your corrective eq is being done on the track,
and slight touch up on the buss/sub if needed.

If you are adding another eq on top of that on the 2 buss, it might be best to go back and revisit the tracks themselves.

The more eq you use the more phase anomalies you are introducing into the track. The more you take away from the natural sound.

Less is always more when it comes to eq.

 

[jimmy77611]

I often use an eq on my drum and master submix busses, while using them on individual tracks. I don't use a massive amount of db on either, just enough to tweak it to perfection (or as close as I can get, haha). I think if it works, then do it. I agree that it can turn into a mess if not done correctly!

 

[DrewPeterson7]

I bus everything - I'll set relative levels for all my rhythm guitars then throw them into a bus so that I can adjust their level en masse easily, generally I'll split my bass track between a DI and a Sansamp, set their level relative to each other until I get something I like, and then route them through a bus so I can adjust the level of the "bass" easily while preserving the relationship between the two, et al.

Barring the drum tracks, I generally EQ at the bus, with the occasional corrective tweak or whatever at the track level. Drums are different, of course, because you're obviously going to treat each part of the kit differently - I guess my approach is anytime I have a "group" of tracks I want to process in the same way I'll do it at the bus level for simplicity, but any time I need to treat each track individually I get it right before it hits the bus. This sounds like common sense, but if you're high passing 6 tracks of guitar at 120hz, then it's way easier to just high pass the bus with a single plugin than use six plugins on six tracks...

 

[TexRoadkill]

Sometimes it makes sense to EQ on a buss. I'll do it on guitars or vocals but it's usually just for controlling the low end of that part relative to the bass and drums. I rarely do any additive EQ or anything too drastic on the buss level.

 

[dobro]

I'm guessing that if you EQ a track, then EQ a subgroup, then EQ a master, you have three "layers" of EQ.

That's what I meant, yeah.

 

[dobro]

I would imagine that most of your corrective eq is being done on the track,
and slight touch up on the buss/sub if needed.

That's right. The EQ on the master bus was just adding a bit of high end shelf for the whole mix. I felt like I was mastering. Very daring lol.

The more eq you use the more phase anomalies you are introducing into the track. The more you take away from the natural sound.

I know what phasing sounds like, but what are phase anomalies? Do they make the sound crappy, or weak?

 

[noisewreck]

I know what phasing sounds like, but what are phase anomalies? Do they make the sound crappy, or weak?

Unless you're using linear phase EQ, then most EQs and filters will add some phasing anomalies at the cutoff/frequency peak/passband, etc. Even with Linear phase EQs you don't get perfect unaltered signal in the passband, as things such as ripples (slight amplitude anomalies) are not uncommon. This has a tendency to make things sound indistinct.

In most cases this is difficult to pick up, because the human ear is more attuned to hearing changes in the sound. A good way to hear this is to setup a static phaser on an audio track and listen to it. Chances are it will sound OK. But then start modulating the phaser frequency, and you start hearing the "whoosh". A similar phenomenon, albeit less severe can be experienced with most EQs and filters. You won't hear it, because especially in the case of the EQ, you usually set a frequency and forget it. But if you modulate the EQ center frequency, you can hear the slight phasing. This can be made even more obvious, if you use two copies of the same exact track, put an EQ on one and leave the other dry, and then modulate the EQ frequency.

 

[dobro]

This has a tendency to make things sound indistinct.

Yeah, and it's most pronounced in busy mixes where I have to EQ the shit out of everything to get a final result that isn't muddy and where everything gets a chance to be heard. Highpass filters don't seem much of an issue, but as soon as I start cutting low mids, some tracks can lose character. I know, I know - track it right and mix surgery isn't required. But even so, getting everything in a busy mix to play nicely with everything else often results in some tracks just being kind of washed out.

So, these days, I aim at a tradeoff. I'm way less ambitious about the total numbers of tracks in a mix - less is better, often. But I want to put enough tracks into the mix to make the song interesting. See, I can solo a track and love the sound. Then I have to turn it down in the mix. It loses a bit of distinctness there. Then I EQ it. It loses a bit of its character there. If I compress anything, it gets a bit warped there. Then comes the verb, and there goes the definition. Small things taken singly, but the outcome's a compromised sound for the single track. Back in the day when I first learned overdubbing, I went crazy piling tracks on top of tracks. These days, I'm happy with three or four instruments and voice. Backing vocals, if I'm feeling expansive. It sounds better.

 

[Bob Ross]

Question: you've all been doing it for years, right?

Well... yes and no. I've done it on ocassion ever since the Dark Ages, but I really don't do it regularly or even as a "standard practice". I generally go to stems when either A) something about the orchestration or the way instruments are grouped sonically lends itself to grouping them literally, and then processing these subgroups as a whole; or B) I'm in a hurry and need to do a quick fix (eg, a Vocal Up mix, but there are 40 tracks of vocals, or maybe a big band cut where I need to get more punch/slam out of the rhythm section).