Advice on recording keyboard plus live jazz band

[leoinnyc]

Hi folks!
I am getting ready to record a demo/ep of my all-acoustic jazz ensemble (8 pieces including drums and winds, etc.). I will most likely record it myself.

However this task is complicated by the fact that some of the music is written for two pianos. I am trying to find an appropriate, affordable space that has two pianos but so far no luck.

So I may have to go to plan b and a keyboard instead of the 2nd piano. But of course this raises a bunch of other issues that I've never dealt with before.

Do I record the keyboard thru an amp like a guitar? I hate the sound of piano thru an amp so I'd rather record the midi and then mix in a better piano sound "in the box." does this make sense as the way to go?

And then how do the musicians hear each other? Do we wear headphones, which I worry will makes for an uncomfortable performance. Or use studio monitors -- which I've never worked with before? Will bleed from the monitors be a big issue? Is midi recording reliable?

Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks so much!

 

[Chibi Nappa]

Hi folks!
I am getting ready to record a demo/ep of my all-acoustic jazz ensemble (8 pieces including drums and winds, etc.).

I hate the sound of piano thru an amp.

Then you have your answer. If you hate the sound, it is not an option. I would not record midi. Just take the headphone line or 1/4 inch mono sound line out of the back of the keyboard and record direct audio.

The other option is to bring a nice home stereo to the room (or powered monitors and a small mixing board) and play the piano through that. Then just pick up the sound through the air like you are doing for the rest of the band. A stereo system like that should not alter the sound of the keyboard like a regular guitar amp would.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

And then how do the musicians hear each other? Do we wear headphones

If that is not what you are used to, no.

Or use studio monitors

Definite possibility...If you have a reliable live soundman to set it up. I can't see acoustic jazz needing much volume at all in stage monitors, so it shouldn't be hard.

Will bleed from the monitors be a big issue?

Depends on how good your live sound man is. Unless a disaster happens (feedback), no. Bleed will actually be your friend.

Is midi recording reliable?

Yes. But probably not needed or appropriate in this case.

Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks so much!

This is live jazz. I would find a way to hear the keyboard in the room (some acceptable transparent monitor system like I said in the other post) and then just put one or two room mics in the best place possible. Acoustic jazz doesn't even want to sound like it was multi-tracked and mixed. If you are not a killer engineer, it will be very hard to multi-track, mix, and then make it sound like you didn't do that.

Room mics all the way.

 

[vijsolo]

If you have never done this before I think a good idea could be to go to a professional studio to record one song and see what they would use there. To see how they work and set up everything. After that try to record the rest yourself. Acoustic jazz is not an easy thing to hometrack (i don't mean you should not do that).

 

[Chibi Nappa]

If you have never done this before I think a good idea could be to go to a professional studio to record one song and see what they would use there. To see how they work and set up everything.

No offense, but seeing what a pro does wouldn't be very helpful. Everything a pro is doing exists in the middle of his brain where you can't see a thing. You see a pro grab mic "x" and put it "over there". Well... why? You could ask him why, but the answer is something that could be written out in an 800 page college text book. The short version you are sure to receive won't be of any real value.

Not saying going to pros for educational help is worthless. Far from it. But you either have to work along side of them for a year or two or sign up for specific education classes to get that help.

A day in a studio only shows you what comes out of a professional head. And what came out is only relevant for that day in that room for that song.

 

[vijsolo]

No reason to fill offended.

I did not mean this will let you do the recording the same way and with the same quality as the professional experienced engineer. This just to have the initial idea of may be needed for this kind of recording. Honestly, I think this kind of music, no matter if it trio, quartet ore the Big Band requires all the time one more instrument during recording. And this instrument is the ROOM. And the best result you can get recording the room properly, not the single instruments.

But this are just my thoughts again. I have never tried to record something of this kind.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

And this instrument is the ROOM. And the best result you can get recording the room properly, not the single instruments.

Agree 100%.

Get it sounding good in the room, and then record that room. All of the "mixing" comes from you guys playing the correct volume yourselves...which I'm sure you already do if you're an acoustic jazz band.

I'm positive your best shot is one or two room mics recorded straight to stereo.


Google search Medeski Martain and Wood's album "Tonic". It was recorded that way. Acoustic drums/piano/bass. Not a single amp anywhere. Not a single mic anywhere...Aside from the one in the middle of the room that did the recording. It will give you an idea of what is possible.

 

[leoinnyc]

So monitors and d.I.?

So you think I should do studio monitors and D.I. The keyboard? Is there anything in particular I need to worry about with the monitors mixing with the recorded keyboard? Phase issues?

Thanks so much guys!

 

[dintymoore]

I'm assuming by jazz you mean dixieland... or maybe you meant Sun Ra?

Avoid tight miking the drums. I think Fletcher's advice here is good:
http://www.mercenary.com/3micdrumstuf.html

I wouldn't have anybody use headphones. I hate headphones. They make they drummer lose his finesse and force an unnatural situation on musicians who don't normally use them. Make the musicians comfortable.

Sounds like fun!

 

[Chibi Nappa]

Is there anything in particular I need to worry about with the monitors mixing with the recorded keyboard? Phase issues?

If you just record with one or two room mics, the sound of the keyboard coming out of the monitors will be the only keyboard sound you record.

 

[leoinnyc]

Jazz

By jazz I mean like Kenny g.

No! Just kidding. It is sorta like Mingus and Gil Evans had a baby and invited Steve Reich over to read him bedtime stories.

 

[leoinnyc]

Well I strongly dislike the sound of fake piano played thru an amp so if I have to use keyboard I would like to DI it

 

[Chibi Nappa]

Well I strongly dislike the sound of fake piano played thru an amp so if I have to use keyboard I would like to DI it

Read my earlier post. It is not the piano through an amp you don't like. It is the piano through a certain type of amp you don't like. Even if you record the piano DI, you absolutely have to play it through an amp to hear it when the CD is done! Unless the end listener can just look at the CD divots and make sense of it.

Guitar amps or most any combo amp you use on stage alter sound drastically because unaltered guitar sounds really bad. This is what you don't like for your keyboard.

So when you perform, run the keyboard through a home hi-fi sysem in the room so all can hear it and the mic can pick it up. Or rent a monitor wedge and amp. Those are clean.

 

[leoinnyc]

Piano sound

I guess what I'm thinking of is the small, tinny and highly localized sound of the kayboards that I've heard vs the big fat open sound of real piano strings vibrating with the bass and high register physically separated across the body of the piano.

This is all very interesting food for thought...

 

[gecko zzed]

Hi folks!
I am getting ready to record a demo/ep of my all-acoustic jazz ensemble (8 pieces including drums and winds, etc.). I will most likely record it myself.

However this task is complicated by the fact that some of the music is written for two pianos. I am trying to find an appropriate, affordable space that has two pianos but so far no luck.

So I may have to go to plan b and a keyboard instead of the 2nd piano. But of course this raises a bunch of other issues that I've never dealt with before.

Do I record the keyboard thru an amp like a guitar? I hate the sound of piano thru an amp so I'd rather record the midi and then mix in a better piano sound "in the box." does this make sense as the way to go?

And then how do the musicians hear each other? Do we wear headphones, which I worry will makes for an uncomfortable performance. Or use studio monitors -- which I've never worked with before? Will bleed from the monitors be a big issue? Is midi recording reliable?

Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks so much!

An easy and sensible option (admittedly often easier said than done) is to record the band playing live, as others have suggested. Get them to set up the way they would normally set up. Use either a stereo pair of mikes, or whatever else you can lay your hands on. There is no need for headphones or monitors as such.

About the piano. Is the sound of the piano intrinsically bad, or is it just the amp that makes it so? If the first, then you are better off recording its midi and using a VSTi (or similar) to give you a better sound. If the latter, then consider using a DI. In either case, you can still use the amped piano for recording the ensemble. Just keep its volume low enough for the others to hear, but not to have a presence in the mix. For example, if you are using just a pair of mikes, have the amp facing away from the mikes.

 

[leddy]

I record live jazz. I recently made a recording with a keyboard that sounds pretty good.

Chibbi and Gekko gave good advice - use an "amp" that makes it sound real. Use good stereo speakers or something. Make it hi-fi in the room. Position the speaker in the room as if it were the piano. Set it where it will appear in the stereo field (center, off to the right, whatever). Mic the group with a stereo pair and whatever spot mics. DI the keyboard as well (one mono signal). Pan the mono DI to match where it is in the main stereo pair. You'll probably have to delay the DI signal by a couple of milliseconds in mixdown. You probably will only need a tiny bit of the DI signal - maybe none.

This will give you a good shot at making it sound realistic. Even if it sounds like a keyboard, it will sound better than just taking a DI and trying to blend that with other mic'd instruments.