Panning/Effects for Vocals

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Glen...I have no idea what question you are really asking.

The same question I asked TWICE in the last post, asked OneWerd to answer in the post immediately before you chimed in again for another round of verbal obfuscation, and that I probably asked you during the first round at least a half dozen times.

What exactly is it about my answer that you find so damn difficult, hard or advanced?

Personally, I find *any* specific answer to this question to be wrong, and it's wrong 100% of the time. There is zero difference between your telling him to pan it center or someone else telling him to pan it 37.42 degrees left of cente; they are both 100% wrong answers.

Bristol Posse hit it on the nose in his own way when he said (paraphrasing), "Pan it center, except when that's wrong". It's a meaningless answer...or rather it's an answer that really says in a convoluted way, "Pan it where it should be panned." Well that's a non-answer that just begs the question, "How do I know where it should be panned?" The answer - the ONLY answer - is, the music will tell you. And it typically will give you a pretty good idea by the time you get to the faders-up test mix.

As far as your "9 out of 10" claim, I'm not going over that untruth in pro music circles again, but I will ask how much of whatever the real number in the home recording arena is cause and how much is effect? Tell everyone who asks the question to pan center and they will. That doesn't make it right, that only means that they are panning center because that's what they believe they are "supposed to" do, and will be reticent to change it, and far more likely - with or without the reticence - to work around it. It then becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy that'll get you close to 10 out of 10 real quick for all the wrong reasons.

It's over, miro.

G.

 

[noisewreck]

1 Unconscious incompetence. These are people who can’t drive and have little or no knowledge of what’s required. Someone sitting in a car for the very first time doesn’t know how to drive, and doesn’t even know how to start a car, what the pedals are for, or anything else. They don’t know what they don’t know.

While I agree with you in principle, I also see where Glen is. Let me add my prespective to your example for Unconscious Incompetence.

This is the complete newb that doesn't know what the break pedal does, doesn't know what all the switches and doodads do. That newb needs to be told "this is the break pedal, you press it when you want the car to stop" for example. In the audio/mixing world that would be something like "this is the pan control, short for panorama. You use it to place the track towards the right or the left or the middle in a stereo field". So, at this point we are not even talking about whether something should be in the middle as the OP asks. We are teaching the actual controls to the newb, and teaching them what different tools do.

However, this is where Glen is preplexed. To me, asking if a vocal should be in the middle or not is like asking, again by bringing your car analogy: "There is a wall in front of me, should I apply the break?". You'd think that intrinsically, due to a person's self-preservation instincts, they'd break, and not even ask whether they should break or not... (remember they are already told what the break pedal does, and know what it's purpose is, the same way the OP knows what Pan does and what it's purpose is).

Glen's point of view is, if you are already hearing the music in your head, you'd be hearing whether the vocals are in the middle or somewhere else, so the question itself is silly.

We get so many silly questions that if the person asking the question stopped and thought about it for a moment, they would NOT even need to ask the question, because they intrinsically already know the answer.

It is possible that they ask the question because they are afraid of breaking some "rule", or going "against convention"... which in itself is an entirely different problem altogether, and partially propagated by the spread of contrived "rules of thumb" that have little artistic bearing on the music at hand. And this is exactly the point that Glen is arguing that by giving "rules of thumb" we are actually making people scared of "breaking rules"... and this is where the car analogy breaks down. Applying the wrong EQ on the bass is not the same as running the red light and smashing into a bus full of nuns and their daughters.

Mind you, not every question is as simple as "where should I pan my vocals" or "should I apply compression to a single track or a group of tracks as a submix". Sometimes there are nuances that may be counterintuitive, such as applying EQ cut on one track to bring out another, instead of what comes naturally, i.e. applying boost to the track that you want to bring out. However, this is not a basic question, and is definitely NOT in the same league as "vocals, dead center or to the sides?" To bring your car analogy into this mix, "there is a big tire on the highway lane I am driving on, should I break?" Well if the person is already on the highway, that means they already know that they should break when there is a wall infront of them, however in this instance, it would be good to give them other options such as "well, if there are no cars in the lane next to you, it might be better to swerve"... which is more akin to "apply EQ cut to this other track, to bring out the sound in the track that you're interested in." Of course the better teacher would also give the "why's" of the option. In the case of driving, it might be better to swerve instead of break, because some idiot might be tailgating you and smash into your rear end if you break hard. Similarly in the case of EQ, by applying cut instead of boost, you preserve the overall headroom in your mix.

Remember, we are NOT talking about some advanced mixing techniques here. And we are NOT talking about teaching them or showing them about the controls and switches, they already know about the controls, otherwise they wouldn't ask the question. These are some very basic questions that people ask that to me it is perfectly OK to push them to listen more carefully to what they already hear in their head.

 

[miroslav]

What exactly is it about my answer that you find so damn difficult, hard or advanced?

That’s the thing…I don't find anything difficult, hard or advanced about your answer...you proposed that yourself.
My contention is that for the specific question the OP was asking…your answer was indistinct. The OP asked a very specific question…he asked about a starting point.

Personally, I find *any* specific answer to this question to be wrong, and it's wrong 100% of the time. There is zero difference between your telling him to pan it center or someone else telling him to pan it 37.42 degrees left of center; they are both 100% wrong answers.

NO...when the OP asks what is a good starting point for panning vocals...dead center is 90% correct, maybe even 100% correct as a starting point.
What you have repeatedly ignored in your rebuttals is the starting point aspect of the OP's question...and instead you've decided to treat it as though the question was about the final point that vocals will all end up at....in every mix!

We are going around in circles now...but as I've pointed out early on in this thread that it's NO different than throwing up all your faders to a "mid-point" or nominal gain point just to see what you have when you first begin to mix...and then from that starting point you move toward a final point in your mix.

It's over, miro.

What…this debate…or are we talking about the kids, the house and the furniture?

Hey...I didn’t resurrect the thread yet again…but I don’t see where I need to just accept my approach as wrong in order to satisfy your side of the debate...in order to end the debate.
I do think you’re getting a bit too serious about it, Glen, and you seem determined to prove your way is the best way… meanwhile, what I suggest is nothing wrong. It’s an approach that’s been in use for thousands of years at all levels and types of educational instruction. You have a starting point with basic “do this” steps that eventually open up the imagination of the student and allow him to come up with his own ideas about what to do next.
You do realize that many of the newbies are here BECUASE they are unclear how to approach all the options they are faced with…and just giving them an indistinct/unspecific answer doesn’t really clarify it for them. I think those that are already “in-tune” with what they are doing would NOT be hear asking very basic/specific “how to” questions…would they?

 

[miroslav]

Glen's point of view is, if you are already hearing the music in your head, you'd be hearing whether the vocals are in the middle or somewhere else, so the question itself is silly.

I TOTALLY get Glen's point of view...BUT....most newbies DON'T hear the music in their heads as a complete production....THAT'S WHY THEY ARE NEWBIES!!!

They need to be given some starting points in order to feel that they are at least on the right path.

 

[noisewreck]

I TOTALLY get Glen's point of view...BUT....most newbies DON'T hear the music in their heads as a complete production....THAT'S WHY THEY ARE NEWBIES!!!

Maybe I am just weird, but even as a newb I don't remember asking myself "should this sound come from the middle, the right or the left?" I already heard it in my head, where the sound was coming from...

I think if you MADE them pay attention to the stuff that they heard in their head, they would get their answer right there, and wouldn't even need to be told about starting points for simple stuff such as panning. This is not something complicated.

I think you're just mad because the voices in my head are only talking to me!

 

[miroslav]

Maybe I am just weird, but even as a newb I don't remember asking myself "should this sound come from the middle, the right or the left?" I already heard it in my head, where the sound was coming from...

Maybe so...but did you know HOW to get it to sound like that with the recording rig you had?

I think we all *hear* some kind of sound in our heads when we come up with a new tune, even as newbies...but I doubt that a newbie is actually hearing a finished/polished production, or has any real clue how to go about getting it.
Especially these days with all the different, readily available toys and hundreds of options they are faced with even with the most simplest DAW.

I’m sorry that Glen is taking my counterpoints so hard, because like I said, I DO get where he is coming from, but, his perspective IMHO is more about the end game, and I’m just talking about giving a newbie a basic staring point to feel comfortable with…no one is saying they should adopt that as their one and only approach…forever……

 

[noisewreck]

Maybe so...but did you know HOW to get it to sound like that with the recording rig you had?

I didn't say that. I said and I quote "I don't remember asking myself 'should this sound come from the middle, the right or the left?'"

So, maybe I didn't know HOW to get the whole mess to sound like what I was hearing in my head, but I certainly knew WHERE the sounds should be coming from.

The further twist is, I still don't know HOW to get certain sounds that I hear in my head, mainly because I work with abstract sounds that need to be synthesized, sampled or mangled... so that takes a lot of work because many times I simply don't have any reference points.

However, recently I had a very specific question on how they used to get that gated reverb sound on 80's rock snares and Lee Rosario was able to give me great pointers on how I can get there.

The point is, yes, newbs aren't gonna be able to recreate what they hear in their head 100%, but rudimentary stuff such as WHERE A SOUND SHOULD COME FROM, shouldn't even be a question in their head, and Glen's point is, and I agree with him 100% that THE REASON THEY HAVE QUESTIONS LIKE THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE, is because they are under the impression that THEY HAVE TO place a sound in a specific spot in the stereo field, otherwise the recording rule of thumb czars will chop their weiner's off or something.

 

[gecko zzed]

. . .but I certainly knew WHERE the sounds should be coming from.

Some people (even beginners) seem to know intuitively how to build a musical pleasing and balanced sonic landscape.

Some beginners just don't get it straight away. I've heard a mix where the musical foundation is sound (great playing, great sounds), but the mixing is all over the place. "I'll put this here, and that there. There is a gap here which I'll fill with this. Hmmm what else? I know, I'll stick this over there." Their placement of sounds is arbitrary or at whim, with no apparent sense of their inter-relationships.

Some of these will eventually learn about light and shade and space and balance. Others may have difficulty. Sometimes it's because their brain is fooling their ears (i.e. they have a mental image of how it should sound, and they think that that is what they've created). SOmetimes it's because they have no mental image in the first place.

What I've been saying is that if these come to you for help and guidance, where they are at will determine how you approach them.

An anecdote: I took some kids through the lighting box at our local theatre and gave them some hands-on experience of the desk. I gave them a number of challenges (e.g. create some spooky lights, light up the group of actors on the stage etc.). One kid, as pleased as punch, showed me his lighting mix. All the faders were exactly level. His idea of a good mix was that the faders should be aligned, irrespective of how that looked on the stage. He had no idea of the relationship of the intensity of lights to each other and how that related to the mixing desk. He just didn't 'get it'. He may, in time, but perhaps lighting is not a career option for him.

 

[noisewreck]

What I've been saying is that if these come to you for help and guidance, where they are at will determine how you approach them.

And I am not disagreeing with you. In fact, I agree with you 100%!

However, you hit the nail in the head with:

SOmetimes it's because they have no mental image in the first place.

And this is where I am in complete agreement with Glen that you should FORCE those that have no mental image, to work on that in the first place, rather than say "put vocals in the middle because that's how it's doen 90% of the time". How is this helping them with getting in the habit of building a mental image of the whole mix before starting the process? It is precisely because they didn't have this image in their head that their mix sounded all over the place, even if the performance was good, in your example.

Everything starts with the end result being the goal. Without knowing what the end result should look or sound like, or at least have some idea, questions such as "should I compress the kick alone or with the bass", "should the violins be dry or covered in heavy reverb", "should the lead guitar be in the middle" are all irrelevant.

Think of it this way. You intend to build an office building, so you start digging a foundation, then come on a forum and ask: "Should my foundation be 12" deep or will 10" suffice?"... Someone comes and asks you "how many levels are you going to have in that building?" You say, "Oh, I don't know, but I wanna be able to fit 12,000 people in it". The guy is gonna come back and ask for architectural and engineering drawings, and you're gonna say, "well we don't really know what the building will look like, we just wanna dig the foundation, what are the most common dimentions for foundations for office buildings?"

So, the guy who has the Miro school of thought comes and says "the answer is 12"

The guy is gonna say "Thanks mate, that's all I wanted to know". And goes on in happy oblivion digs his foundation that's pretty much useless for the building that doesn't even exist conceptually.

Glen on the other hand says "Sorry man, you shouldn't even start digging a foundation until you have architectural design, technical drawings, have done the calculations for earthquake and wind resistance, etc..., then based on all these variables, you can start digging your foundation that will fit the building at hand."

The guy will come back and call Glen an asshole (sorry Glen!) for not giving him the easy answer (which is 12 BTW ) ) and making his life miserable for making him think.

Meh, my best teachers were all assholes.

 

[noisewreck]

To further the questioning:

Once you have a mental image in your head of what things should sound like and where they should be, you stop asking question such as "should I pan vocals to the middle" or "should I have a lot of reverb on my violins?" you start asking more specific questions such as:

"I am working on this mix, where I have a string section that I want to sit in the background, but when I apply reverb, things get too indistinct and mushy. What other things can I do to push them into the background, w/o having a sonic goo?"

This person, I believe, is much more likely to get answers to his question that will be far more helpful, specific and will allow him to learn of mixing techniques that he may lack to bring his vision to life. But at least he has a VISION!

 

[miroslav]

The question was clearly answered for the OP in the first few posts...and it was stated early on to the OP that there are NO rules.
So I'm not sure why we keep going on and on as though I (and others) have been saying it is some kind of rule to place the vocals in the center????
That's my main beef with Glen's debate, because at times he’s twisted my comments to a point of absolutism...but all that's really been talked about is a *starting point*, and there is nothing absolute about that.
Just go back and read the OPs original question and the first dozen posts before this all got blown out of proportion.

AFA giving someone a specific starting point rather than telling them to just let the music guide them...this is where gecko zzed is right, that it really depends on the person who is asking for instruction...NOT the person giving it.
IOW...if the instructor can't clarify it properly for the student, it's not the student's burden...it is the instructor’s. Of course, some instructors will just throw out their philosophy, and leave it up to the student to figure it out...which can be viewed as some form of "tough love" and not necessarily a "wrong" approach...but IMO, I prefer to get the student moving instead of pondering over stuff endlessly.

From my own, early recording history...I always HATED the magazine articles/interviews where some engineer would just blah, blah, blah and toss out comments about just "using your ears" when at the time, I was looking for more "hands on" answers.
Heck...no matter how much I tried at times in the early days, there were some issues with my mixes even though I used my ears and listened to the music.
But then...when I began to pick up more specific info...like "to remove mud, roll off in the 200-400Hz range”...all of a sudden my ears knew what to listen for in the music, and my hands knew where to go.

You need to first reach a practical, basic point of understanding before all the philosophical and deeply imaginative ideas can be brought into play with any positive results, otherwise, most times, people will just end up noodling around, never quite sure about some things, guessing at others…no matter how much they "listen to the music".
So...if they sometimes hear it from a veteran that placing vocals dead center is a good starting point...but not a rule...then they will feel that much more comfortable about what they are doing IMHO.

 

[noisewreck]

"to remove mud, roll off in the 200-400Hz range”

Yes, but that's completely different than where someone should pan vocals isn't it? That's technical info, a tool. And I have no problem with giving such technical info, which is most certainly very helpful.

OK, more car analogies:
Akin to your EQ roll off:
"To get the car rolling, depress the clutch, put the car in 1st gear, apply a little gas, and SLOWLY ease off the clutch."

Akin to where vocals should be panned:
"Get a silver gray car, that's what most people are buying nowdays."

 

[miroslav]

It's technical up to a point...there can also be a good deal of artistic/subjective opinion about it too.

If we were talking about panning most anything else except lead vocals...this thread probably would have ended on page 1...but even if we talked about panning a pair of electric guitars, there is nothing wrong with telling a newbie that often, panning them L/R opposite each other is a good place to start, and then go from there.

We can go on and on...and none of those suggestions are in any way telling someone how to mix all the time, every time...there is no canned recipe implied in giving out those kinds of suggestions nor does it restrain anyone’s imagination to deviate from there.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I'm forced to conclude, miro, that you don't get what I'm saying at all. Practically every characterization you've made about my POV in the past few posts has been incorrect. I won't bother reiterating the details one more time.

What I'm taking hard, miro, is not the disagreement, but either the refusal or the inability to even properly represent the POV which you are contending. You're not debating my POV, you're debating some other POV which no one here has even raised. I know you're capable of better debate style than that, therefore it must be me that's incapable of explaining the obvious. That's what I'm taking hard.

The fact is, miro, we're both talking about starting points. I just see your "starting point" as an artificial one occurring long after the natural one I describe, whereas you don't see mine as a staring point at all, but rather as an end game.

You are right that not everybody is going to form a full mental image in their head before they sit down at the mixer. Hell after doing this for 30 years, I still don't have a complete idea every time - maybe not even a majority of the time. But I've already stipulated that. In such cases, that's what faders up is all about. But I've at least got a pretty good idea of the vocalist's role in the mix.

That last statement about the vocalists role should be doubly true if the person doing the mixing is the person who wrote or at least performed the song. This is the link between arrangement, performance and mixing, and a big part of reason for treating the mix as an extension of the arrangement, i.e. of the music itself. This is why and how "the music guides the mix".

This is not the advanced chapter. this is not the end game. This is the natural next move of mixing that follows the starting point, which is the recording of the song itself. It is simply a continuation of the same game plan that started with the inspiration for creating the song.

And I can't speak for your experience, miro, but I have yet to meet a musician or mix engineer who hasn't already at least some idea in their heads of what they would like their actions at the desk to do once they get there, where their doing it for the first time or the hundredth.

There are only two things holding them back. The first is unfamiliarity with the equipment. This can easily apply to a newb when it comes to knowing what to do with a compressor or a parametric EQ, but I doubt there is anybody out there, even in home recording, that doesn't know how a pan pot works.

The second thing - and the key one - is a lack of self-confidence based upon a lack of self-experienced combined with belief that there is a way they are "supposed" to do it, a "pro" method that they need to learn first. The hope and belief almost always is is that it's something simple and formulaic like, "put the vocals here, the guitars there", etc.

All I'm saying is that it's even simpler than that; the "pro" way is no different than the "newb" way that they have - consciously or not - already been following. They already have their starting point; it started when they started creating the song. in fact they have already taken steps beyond that starting point, and they just need reassurance that they are already walking in the right direction, and to just keep going the way they have been. It's not only OK to do so, but it's in fact the best way to do so.

When viewed in that simplistic continuum, which is not a philosophy, but a factual description of reality, creating an arbitrary starting point halfway through the game that totally ignores what has already taken place within the creation of the song and the recording just doesn't make a lot of sense

I don't see how it could possibly be conceptually any simpler than that. How is that "advanced", or not as simple as 1+2=3, or "tough love", or an "end game"? I'll put an answer on it myself, since no one else has volunteered one: The answer is, "It's not".

It's not a question of teaching method, it's a question of class subject. The subject is "How To Mix Music", and no one should mix any music by making arbitrary choices unrelated to the music itself, newb or pro. If that sounds like hardball to you, I can't help that. Maybe my way of explaining it is not a good teaching method for some, I'll admit that and I'll agree. Hell, it's taken an almost 100 post thread at this time and you still haven't really understood my meaning, that's pretty much proof in the pudding right there.

So maybe there are better ways of explaining or getting the point across than I have been able to conjure up in this medium and this thread, but the way to do it certainly is not by teaching the the wrong way to mix, other than maybe as an example of how *not* to do it.

I was wrong about one thing for sure, though. It wasn't over when I thought it was.

G.

 

[miroslav]

Glen...I GET your POV....I think I've said that a few times throughout this thread.

But...I just don't see it as the guaranteed better way to instruct a newbie that is asking more specific, hands-on questions....and I don't see that the type of answers I've given (along with many others) are *wrong*, *fluff* or *artificial*...which is what you keep insisting.

I have a good deal of experience with recording, not to mention, that since I've been playing and recording my own shit for many, many years...I really do have to wear a lot of hats and have to think it all out pretty clearly, otherwise I end up having to backtrack...and yeah, I do *hear* the song and the production pretty darn good in my head before I actually get to mixing...BUT...BUT...BUT...I still don't have every damn pan position and FX and EQ all clearly *thought out* in my head during pre-production and tracking!
So yeah, when I get to the mixing stage...I will still start with some things at a *default* starting point...and that has NEVER forced me to stick with some "canned recipe*.

Sheeeesh...we are just talking about throwing up the faders and pan knobs to get set up for mixing....THAT is the starting point I am talking about.
Why you keep insisting it will lead to bad mixing decisions and cookie-cutter type of productions is not clear to me…?

I think the real rub here is that when it comes to vocals…they DO end up panned dead center most of the time…which IMO, only makes that a pretty good candidate for the default starting position. I doubt people pan lead vocals dead-center just because someone told them to or because they think that’s how it must be. Though on the second point, in reality…lead-vocals panned dead center…in most cases ends up being a “must be” only because that IS how you treat a key element if you want to get the maximum mileage out of your mixing. I mean…I think THAT is way they DO end up panned dead-center most of the time….because it just sounds right for most mixes!
And to me, that’s more than enough reason to call "dead-center" a good starting point…a default point.

Heck…one of the things I learned a long time ago and still practice…is to always zero my board before every recording and mixing session. And you know, when I’m doing 2-3 songs that have the same vibe and where maybe the Kick is going to have the exact same settings…I STILL zero the board rather than just go for that preset…BUT…I will also pan and set some things to basic default positions at the start, just so everything doesn’t “pile up in the middle”. I put vocals in the center…if I have a couple of guitars, I’ll split and pan them to some “ballpark” L/R settings…and same goes for the other elements.
Then…I sit and listen…NOT to what I was hearing in my head…but to what I am now actually hearing coming out of the monitors (which can be different).

I'm sure the first few mixes by most any newbies will be somewhat "basic" (or totally erratic and whacky), but in my experience, those people that have a good music foundation and imagination always move away from that on their own...even if they initially needed someone to point and say..."put it there".

If they never moved away from that...then no amount of "let the music guide you" philosophy at the very beginning would have made much difference anyway...IMO.

 

[noisewreck]

Meh, you're both going about this wrong.

Vocals should be panned up. Bass should be panned down.

And reverb should surround you like nice warm blankie.

Those are my starting points. In fact, I have a real issue with how we setup speakers. Pshshs, why are they all setup in a circle around us? Why don't we have some that are overhead? Then you can really play tricks, like having some bitch yell at your listener from the above

That'll teach them proper panning. Pshhhhh.

 

[Bristol Posse]

OK so I figured it out an resurected the thread!

Actually as a starting point, given that MOST of us home recordists will be GENERALLY using one mic for recording vocals, by default the vocal will be straight down the middle when you play it back for the first time.
In fact even if your double micing for room ambience, different characteristics or whatever you'll end up with a bunch of mono tracks, straight down the middle, stacked on top of each other. so the first time you play it back you'll get an idea of if it sounds right (If you're really listening properly)

The only time this wouldn't be the case is if you are stereo micing for a particular effect, which would suggest you know exactly where you want the vocals to sit in the stereo field or you are stereo micing by accident or recording one channel on a stereo input, in which case you'll probably end up here asking why your vocal only plays back out of the left speaker after you record it

Ok so that takes care of that leaving the afternoon free to come up with a unified theory for quantum gravity

 

[noisewreck]

unified theory for quantum gravity

Good luck on that one

I don't think even god (if something like that exists) can figure that one out.

 

[miroslav]

'Cmon guys...

Center of gravity is directly related to the center of mass...which confirms why lead vocals should be panned dead-center...since they are the "center of mass" for most any recording.

 

[noisewreck]

'Cmon guys...

Center of gravity is directly related to the center of mass...which confirms why lead vocals should be panned dead-center...since they are the "center of mass" for most any recording.

(smacks the forehead)!!!
That explains why all the best opera singers are FAT!