in over my head...

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rockinokie

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Hey! New guy here.

I just aquired an MX-5050 MKIII-8 after being inspired by a Space Echo (tape delay) I picked up a while back. There is not much that I listen to that wasn't recorded on tape and also being a musician I figured I could really get into this.

So here is the low down:

Other than the corners of the machine being a little beat up it looks barely used. I power it up and everything lights up like it should but there are some slight problems. It plays slow when the take up reel has the majority of the tape. It rewinds slow when the supply reel has the majority and ff slow when the take up reel has majority of tape. It came with a couple reels of Ampex 456 mastering tape and an Ampex 206? test tape. So here are some questions:

1. What else can I do besides get different tape? Oil capstan motor? I know I need to clean it gooood.

2. I understand that these machines have an unbalanced signal and are pin 3 hot. The guy I got it from said the only time he used it was when he ran an xlr from a cd deck to record and check signal. He said it recorded and played back and said that his cables are pin 2 hot. He said he was aware of them being pin 3 hot so he assumed it had been modified. Likely??

3. Before I can do anything I need a mixer and maybe some pre-amps. I was told to get an older yamaha mixer. Suggestions? and yes, I know there is plenty I can do before I get a mixer.

I have a ways to go and know very little about this stuff. ...and when explaining please explain in "dummie" terms. I think I can tackle anything. My only worries is problems on the actual circuit boards...

Thanks in advance! ...and be gentle:o
 
There are several things that can cause this even if the capstan motor is fine.

Before you go any further, there is a known problem with Ampex 456 becoming sticky and gumming up the machines. Getting some new, fresh tape really is the first thing you should try in this situation.

After that, the next culprit would be the capstan belt, if there is such a thing - I don't know if the Otari is direct drive or not. A quick google search seems to suggest that some are direct-drive and some are belt-driven. If there is a belt, it may have stretched or otherwise gone bad, and that would give you exactly this problem.

Next up, the pinch roller - again, these are rubber and can turn to goop. If it's on its way out that will affect the ability of the capstan to grip the tape properly. I think you can get these, if not, or if it's too much, look up Terry's Rubber Rollers - he can rebuild them to spec.

Finally, it may be that the solenoid pushing the roller against the capstan may be out of alignment or something. Do you get an improvement if you manually push the roller against the capstan during playback? Usually there's a cover or something you can press against that doesn't rotate - obviously pressing the rubber itself will make things worse :P

Hope that helps...
 
Thanks for the advice! I'm not yet sure if it is belt driven or direct drive. I read in the manual that the earlier models are belt driven. I'll check when I get home.

Also, I was told that this machine was bias for Ampex 456 and 49?. What can I use thats not sticky?

The pinch roller looks good to me. Rubber seems good/solid. ...no cracks or goo. And I don't think I can move this roller like that. ...but I will check when I get home.

Thanks again!
 
rockinokie said:
Also, I was told that this machine was bias for Ampex 456 and 49?. What can I use thats not sticky?
Click to expand...
456 and 499 are different to each other, but you've basically got the following options:

1. RMGI 911 (this is 456-equivalent) or 900 (this is 499 equivalent)

2. ATR tape - this stuff is extremely expensive, at least in the UK. It is not a direct equivalent to either so you might need to rebias the machine for it to work entirely right. I'd definitely make sure any transport issues were sorted before that, though.

The other option is to try find some Quantegy 456 or 499 off ebay or something. I wouldn't recommend that approach unless the stuff is sealed since otherwise you have no guarantee it's actually what they claim.
Ampex managed to fix the sticky-shed problem about the time they rebranded as Quantegy, so anything Quantegy-branded is likely to be okay.
 
Thanks. I'll look into some RMGI911. He said it was bias for 456 and then said also for "uhhh four ninety something... I don't know". So I will assume 456 or 911 until I learn all the extras of head alignment, bias, calibration etc.


...can't wait to get home and open it up.:D
 
jpmorris gave some good advice for you to consider. I wanted to chime in and say you should be able to use the RMG 911. (I can't believe I really wrote that) I've had some shedding issues with the RMG and no longer use it. The RMG is about $69.00 while the ATR is about $20.00 more. (IMO ATR is much better) Lots of guys on the forum love the RMG. Before you buy anything from junkbay you should take a look at some of Beck's sticky shed threads. He is the man when it comes to any tape issue questions. Good luck.
 
Sorry to drive this in the ground but what about Quantegy GP9? Somewhere on here I read a machine can be bias for GP9, 456, and 911.

From what I've read, if a machine is fed Quantegy/Ampex for the most of its life I may run into some problems using RMG911 because of potential wear (not visible to the eye). ...and ATR wouldn't I have to adjust machine for this?

I'd like to start with some worry free tape. Maybe make a crappy recording as a starting point and as something to improve from.:cool:

Thanks for all the advice!
 
The RMG is about $69.00 while the ATR is about $20.00 more.
Click to expand...
That would be nice. Over here, we're talking a difference of $75 vs $150, for a single spool of 1/2" tape (this includes tax).

I don't know where the OP is located, though.

**EDIT**

Oh yes, I've heard that ATR is the closest to GP9 currently in production. I've never used either, though.

**EDIT EDIT**

Another factor on the ATR stuff is that it is very thick which may upset some transports. Someone else will have to chime in as to whether the 5050 can handle it properly. Either way, if there's a potential transport issue, you're probably be better off sticking with RMG, at least until you're sure the deck is working correctly.
 
First thing I would do is not put that tape on the machine again until you know if the rest of the electronics are working. If you have some kind of mixer or preamp you can use try it first.
When you get a preamp you can use record a small amount on each track and see what happens. If it all works I would then get some new tape. Not used Not one pass tape nothing off ebay unless you can pick up a brand new quantegy spool of 1/2 inch.
Dont run that tape anymore than enough to test the machine. maybe 30 seconds on each track.
If you can pick up a cheap food dehydrator bake that tape for a couple of hours at 130 degrees and that should make the tape usable for a short amount of time.
But till you have all your ducks in a row playing with that tape can only bring you trouble.

I have tried to use old 456 tape that was so bad that it would stop a 1/2 inch recorders motors in rewind and play. GET RID OF IT
 
2. I understand that these machines have an unbalanced signal and are pin 3 hot. The guy I got it from said the only time he used it was when he ran an xlr from a cd deck to record and check signal. He said it recorded and played back and said that his cables are pin 2 hot. He said he was aware of them being pin 3 hot so he assumed it had been modified. Likely??
Click to expand...

I wouldn't assume the deck has been modded.

The output of the CD deck was likely balanced. This means its carrying the same signal on pins 2 and 3, just out of phase from each other. Because your Otari is unbalanced with XLR's it didn't matter because the hot signal on pin 2 was shunted to ground coming off the CD deck and the hot signal on pin 3 is what was recorded. So don't worry about that. If you plan on making recordings on your deck and having them mastered on a a 1/2" open reel deck at another facility then you need to think about making special cables (which is what I recommend) or modding the deck (I would stay away from that seeing the option to make special cables). If you're just keeping it at home then don't worry about the pin 3 hot thing.

+1 to everything else said above. I would be suspicious of the tape first and foremost and not dig into anything else until you have fresh tape with the exception of feeling if the pinch roller is tacky or the capstan belt (if there is one) is tacky. GP9, 499, SM900 are all in the same family of tape types. There are minor differences between them but SM900 and 499 are most alike. Thay are bias compatible AFAIK...I think GP9 is close but best thing is to rebias for it.

I would bet the deck's electronics and transport were built around 456/SM911. Get what you want but I recommend you start with the standard and then explore out from there. My 2p.
 
BTW, I'd be looking hard at getting an older Tascam mixer. Nothing wrong with the Yamaha stuff AT ALL, but much harder to find. Better user support for the Tascam mixers...M208, M-308, M-1508...if you need more channels there is the M-216, M-312, M-1516...
 
FYI, capstan motor on MX-5050 MKIII-8 is direct drive..

Cheers,

Otto
 
what kind of oil for the capstan?

Thanks ofajen, I didn't get a chance last night to open it up and see. It was unclear to me in the manual because it said early models of MX5050 were belt drive. ....which could've been other models besides the MKIII-8. I think it was being kinda broad.

I did manage to do some cleaning. The heads had very little oxide on them but the two to the right had a small groove towards the bottom. Relapping may be a must in the near future but I'm not going to worry about it too much right now. On the other hand, the pinch roller had brown oxide that would NOT come off. ...and when trying to get it off I took a very small chunk of rubber out of it:eek:. Gonna see about sending it to Terry. Makes me wonder if the guy who sold it to me had cleaned the heads but not the pinch roller. It was in good shape... not turning to "goo" just had some shed that wouldn't come off.

Sweetbeats, I will assume that it is not modded then. I'll check it out though just to make sure before I go to cuttin' and solderin'. ...and I'll check out the Tascams. Thanks!

Gonna go ahead and order some RMG 911 today. I won't even consider using or baking the 456 I have right now.:cool:

What kind of oil should I use for the capstan?
 
Normally the capstan does not need oiling...usually a sealed cartridge bearing at the tail and a bronze oilite bushing or cartridge bearing at the nose. Is it binding up or sound like its laboring? Very hard to turn by hand?

If it has a bronze bushing at the nose then turbine oil or zoom spout oil in small amounts there.

What did you use to clean the pinch roller? If a chunk came off during cleaning it is indeed time to replace/refurb.
 
sweetbeats said:
Normally the capstan does not need oiling...usually a sealed cartridge bearing at the tail and a bronze oilite bushing or cartridge bearing at the nose. Is it binding up or sound like its laboring? Very hard to turn by hand?

If it has a bronze bushing at the nose then turbine oil or zoom spout oil in small amounts there.

What did you use to clean the pinch roller? If a chunk came off during cleaning it is indeed time to replace/refurb.
Click to expand...

hehe:o I used denatured alcohol on it. ...though, I just read on Terry's website to use soap and water.

hmmm... seemed I had read in the manual it was suppose to be oiled quite often. ...coulda been something else:rolleyes:... It doesn't have a bronze bushing or cartridge at the nose. There is nothing that seems wrong with it. Just wanting to take care of typical maintenance. Your probably right tho.:)

Just got some SM911 orderd! The pinch roller will be off to Terry today!

This website is awesome!!! Hopefully I don't lose my job googling the archives!:D
 
Yeah, solvents are never good for rubber and if one is on its last legs it'll send it over the edge.

When in doubt follow the manual with lubrication. I don't have a 5050, never have...nevr even had an Otari deck but I've been close to them a few times... :D

You wouldn't likely be able to see the bearing really without getting the motor out of the transport so just refer to the manual, but in general it seems that for open reel recorders I've seen lots of recommendations to use Zoom Spout Oil on motor bushings and stuff...its a Turbine Oil which just means its a highly refined light mineral oil suitable for high temp or harsh environments.
 
Okay, so the title of this original post is really an understatement...

I got my pinch roller back from Terry, got some RMG 911 and am waiting on an order for some "bulk" mogami cable from Redco (I made the order almost two weeks ago by phone but the total was never deducted from my account so I am assuming I'll have to call again which is just as well considering I might need to change my order). Along with the cable I ordered 12 neutrik female and 12 male XLR connectors.

So here is my question reguarding a mixer that I still need to get. Are direct outs on most mixers TRS 1/4 jacks? I was assuming I needed XLRs for the outs as well but it seems I am seeing differently. ???

I know this maybe a question for the newbie board but since I am recording to tape I figured this is just as good.

Also, I may have found a Tascam 2516 for a decent price. What do y'all think?

Thanks for all the help!!!
 
Right....so you might want to make your cables with 1/4" ends....I don't think you bought enough connectors... Tascam mixers are good. I am also selling a mixer in the For Sale section, that has subgroups and on-board effects, though it has twice as many channels as you need.
 
Thanks man. I orderd 12 male and 12 female...making 12 cables gearing myself up for 6 channels for right now. I guess I need to change the order to 6 1/4" connectors, 12 male XLRs and 6 female XLRs then.

I'll check out your mixer too.

Thanks!
 
I used to own a MX-5050 8 track (the first one) and I loved it. I used Radio Shack rubber rejuvenator on the capstan and it totally fell apart! The rubber turned into doo-doo.

I also had a Tascam M-216 mixer and fought with that thing and never, ever could get it to sound right. It just introduced a sound I could never like, to the point that I avoid Tascam like the plague now.

After that I bought Yamaha DMP11's which worked great. I was able to automate all my mixes with those, and this was 1990-ish.
 
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