Any tips on layering guitars??

[Matt C.]

thanks for all the advice. just what i was hoping for.

 

[noisewreck]

Arrangement is what separates music from noise.

Viewed differently, arrangement is what turns noise into music

 

[BrentDomann]

This thread got me thinking: Not a one-man-band, but a one-man-droning-electric-phasing-Westernized-six-string-balalaika-orchestra!

 

[InLimbo33]

the fullest, lushest thing I've ever recorded (and my music is very lush [link]) had only two guitars (and a third for a solo late in the song), one synth, a bass, two vocals and a stereo drum track. It was due to the combination of all of the things people have been mentioning on this thread (EQ, Compression, Phase, Micing, etc).

If you listen to something like Hum's Downward is Heavenward (which is a great album, imho) you realize that there are usually two electrics and a doubled acoustic (so it seems on a careful listen). Or take My Bloody Valentine's Loveless; same story, just a handful of guitars.

I did a song once where I tried to layer tons of overdriven electric guitar playing the same thing. I don't remember how many tracks it was, but it was over 20 for sure. It gave me a cool chorus effect that was so muddy and buried that it kind of sounded like it was recorded to magnetic tape. So I got my answer, and I generally don't use more than 2 or 3 guitars, and I achieve a full sound by tweaking it's dynamics.

 

[Mike_J]

I think the easiest way to get a fuller sound is to switch guitas, pickups, amps and effects. Experiment with panning (don't just go with hard left/right), compression and reverb.

Same here. Using these techniques with double tracking.

 

[jab2980]

fwiw I just read somewhere that the smashing pumpkins used like 40 layers of guits on cherub rock. Flood even referred to them as the guitar overdub army or something. Just an instance where this worked (at least for my ears), but I think it was said on this sites somewhere else that because of Corgan's vocal register he was able to do this, and it would'nt work in most applications.
However I do agree with many that 50 guits with many being similiar is just nutz.

This is the first band I thought of as well. I still remember the article from when Melloncollie was released... at one point in "Through the Eyes of Ruby" they have 50+ simultaneous tracks going on at once. But then again, thats the Smashing Pumpkins + Flood and not us

 

[DrewPeterson7]

This is the first band I thought of as well. I still remember the article from when Melloncollie was released... at one point in "Through the Eyes of Ruby" they have 50+ simultaneous tracks going on at once. But then again, thats the Smashing Pumpkins + Flood and not us

Jimmy's pretty much spot on. The Pumpkins had a lot of things going for them on Cherub Rock.

1.) not all 40 layers are playing at the same time. One of the first "wow, that's cool!" moments that got me started thinking about arrangements, before I even got interested in chorus, was that single (ok, it's probably at least doubled) clean-ish guitar, possibly accompanied by an acoustic, playing a single D chord mixed way back behind that huge D power chord that opens the chorus, and then just sustains there until it fades out. It's subtle, it's easy to mix, but it adds a nice amount of space to it. Likewise, there's that clean introduction (grabs iPod) which sounds like two VERY tight tracks that start centered and then split, and either way drop out after the distorted guitars come in, and then there's a couple tracks of low E/octave riffing going on (maybe 4...?) while above that there's that ascending octave guitar playing a different part. You hit the chorus, and another batch of guitars, EQ'd to fit into a different part of the sound spectrum, comes in, playing what sound to me like the same chords in a different register and possibly a different inversion. And then, coming out of the chorus, there's a lead guitar doubling Corgan's "uh... huh." vocal, and of course another radically different sounding "lead" guitar, which is either phased or doubled (maybe the later, since that "guitar blowing up" sound is probably tough to double-track, but I'm not sure), and then the lead fills with yet another guitar sound after the solo when the bridge comes in. I mean, there may be 40 guitars in total going on in this song, but they're not all playing at once, and they're not all playing the same riff and the same chords. It's like a jigsaw puzzle.

2.) Corgan's voice. Even as a fan I have to admit calling him a "singer" is sometimes slightly charitable, but there's no question that he's singing "over" the guitars in pitch, and that a guy with a lower pitched voice would be fighting against the guitar sound.

3.) the guitar tone itself. The Pumpkins are fairly gain-y for such an orchestral band, but their "wall of sound" guitar approach is actually a fairly narrow tone (or rather a collection of a whole bunch of fairly narrow tones). No individual guitar tone is terribly expansive.

4.) See #1 - all of the parts are rhythmically very tight (except the wonderfully chaotic lead). Your ability to layer guitars is entirely contingent upon your ability to play the same part perfectly over and over again.

 

[19 Dead]

Apologies if I'm resurrecting an old thread here, but I'm interested in the creation songs with layers of guitars, ideally 25+

at http://www.myspace.com/19dead there is a song of mine called Mother's Meat in which I used 30 guitars playing exactly the same notes. The only difference was that 15 of them were using a DiMarzio Super Distortion bridge pickup and 15 were using a DiMarzio PAF neck pickup. Same settings on my cabs, pedals etc.

I originally wanted a kind of 'wall of sound' type thing, but there are subtle nuances in the recording that surprised me. At some times it sounds like the guitars are 'bubbling'.

 

[miroslav]

I dunno…the number of guitars used isn’t really key to getting those sounds, IMO.

After a half dozen cranked guitars all drowning the same notes…any more you add will either mask the previous ones or be masked. IOW…I can get the same sounds you were getting with just 2-3 guitars.
Last night I was playing my little Tungsten Cortez 5E3 amp…and that thing almost comes to a boil when you really push on it…it has all those overtones and screeches…and that’s just with a single guitar.

I’m sure it’s an interesting experiment…but I don’t think you really gain anything by using 25-50-100 guitars all playing the same thing.

Oh…and the “wall of Sound” isn’t really about layering the same thing 40-50 times…it’s about using lots of different instruments, some playing the same notes/phrases, but most playing different stuff that all comes together to form the wall.
It’s not just a lot of layers…it’s more about the arrangement.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

I don't know what kind of gear you have, but unless you have some mics and preamps worth as much as your average entire HR project studio costs, a choice of several different guitar and amp combinations, and a room to play them in that does not hinder the quality of the recording, and the knowledge and experience of how to set up your gain structure to take advantage of the situation, mixing 50 simultaneous electric guitar tracks and not having the result sound like crap borders on fantasy.

You know, rereading this thread after the last bump... The sonic anarchist in me suddenly REALLY wants to try this.

 

[19 Dead]

Oh…and the “wall of Sound” isn’t really about layering the same thing 40-50 times…it’s about using lots of different instruments, some playing the same notes/phrases, but most playing different stuff that all comes together to form the wall.
It’s not just a lot of layers…it’s more about the arrangement.

Ah yeah, I agree about the arrangement, but I know there are records out there that have sheer sonic walls created with the use of perhaps three guitars layered a few times, eg separated by octaves.

I'm glad how the above song at my myspace turned out, even if i'm not 100% happy with how it sounds. I'll treat it like an experiment and take what I learned from it.

 

[noisewreck]

I'm glad how the above song at my myspace turned out, even if i'm not 100% happy with how it sounds. I'll treat it like an experiment and take what I learned from it.

That's the way man I have a lot of those "what if" sessions, both in synthesis and recording/audio manipulation.

You can push it further. For example: "What happens if I take an audio file, open it in Photoshop and apply Gaussian Blur to it?"

 

[DrewPeterson7]

That's the way man I have a lot of those "what if" sessions, both in synthesis and recording/audio manipulation.

You can push it further. For example: "What happens if I take an audio file, open it in Photoshop and apply Gaussian Blur to it?"

I STILL haven't tried that. I need to!

 

[saads]

I think you should go for it. Who says you can't have that many layered guitars. Have you heard 'Soma' by the Smashing Pumpkins? It's in the album Siamese Dream. It has i think more than 50 layers of guitars....go for it, play around with it until you like what you hear.

 

[Creamyapples1]

I'm a fan of layering, I tend to use multiple amps/guitars to record the same parts. I also stereo mic but use different microphones (I.E. SM57 and a Hamburg)

I also like to throw in an acoustic guitar double mic'd, even on heavier stuff, but I'm kinda funny like that.

Pan each set a little different and set the volumes as I see fit. It works for me.

 

[timodell7]

i'm not doing that many layers just to get the sound to be "full", i'm doing it so that the sound goes beyond sounding like guitars. a special effect.

I would take one of the tracks and run it through some really wet effects. try using more mics on the amp when you are recording. I've used eight mics on one guitar amp, then pick which sounds best in each part of the song. And you could take one and add more reverb to it. Compress another into oblivion. Add a little delay to one. Then make a cool guitar sub mix.