Any tips on layering guitars??

[iownrocknroll]

just to bring in the 50+ layered guitars..........
i've seen some fall out boy and killers PT sessions where there were 40+ TRACKS of guitar playing at the same time.

that said, these are normally summs, so 10 mics, 5 takes.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

screw the naysayers, go for it

Translation: No need to ask questions on these forums, because only those answers that you find agreeable are the correct ones. What you need are a bunch of yes-men, not people who actually know the subject.

this is recording and there really arent any hard and fast rules

Wouldn't that be nice? If only that were true.

screw it you didnt pay 50 bucks an hour to experiment in someone elses studio now did ya?

Translation: Your own time is worthless.

G.

 

[Matt C.]

Where have you heard 50 layered guitar tracks before?

G.

Glenn Branca

and i'm asking questions on this forum to see if anyone has any helpful advice, not "that's ridiculous, don't do it".

 

[89gtsleeper]

This has officially become the thread from hell. It has 666 views at the moment!!! Hells yeah!!!

 

[NL5]

Glenn Branca

and i'm asking questions on this forum to see if anyone has any helpful advice, not "that's ridiculous, don't do it".

Well, I listened to some of his stuff on Myspace, and it sounds like a muddy mess. Should be pretty easy to get that sound.

I think that if you actually listened to what people are telling you, you would realize that they are giving you advice - you're just not hearing it.......

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

and i'm asking questions on this forum to see if anyone has any helpful advice, not "that's ridiculous, don't do it".

Why is that advice unhelpful? When I ask questions, if there's a decisive majority answer, that should tell me *something*. What exactly it says can vary depending upon many other variables, but they are results that at the very least should not be ignored and should probably be investigated further.

Have you considered asking folks *why* they take the position they do? You could eliminate the simple naysayers from the rest of the crowd very easily that way. And for the rest, you might actually get some details and caveats that would be very helpful for you to learn, possibly even greatly help you achieve your goal.

There's a lot of people here who have already walked the paths that you are just starting to consider traveling; I wouldn't just dismiss people who disagree with you as being "unhelpful". At the very least they might point out things that don't work well or things that require a different approach than what you might assume so you don't have to re-discover on your own which path will walk you off a cliff.

G.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

As far as Glenn Branca goes, he has a background as an orchestral composer. He creates his wall of noise though heavy esoteric musical arrangement. He *writes* his music with plenty of separation of parts by changing tunings, harmonies based upon harmonic series, taking advantage of natural resonances, etc. if you are looking to do that kind of stuff, you probably want to study up on his compositional technique (good luck comprehending it, the guy is riding that fine line between genius and nutcase )

G.

 

[Matt C.]

so far the only advice i've gotten is "it will sound muddy" and "it's pointless". i realize it will sound muddy! and it's not pointless - 50 guitar tracks sounds a lot different than 3 or 4 guitar tracks.

please tell me why you are all so set on stopping me from doing this? the very worst thing that will happen is i spend a few hours working on it and i end up with an unusable product. does the idea of me potentially wasting one afternoon really upset all of you that much?

and glen - i realize that branca's stuff inhabits a different universe than what i'm doing. i'm not trying to mimic it, it's just what put the idea in my head. although i would be interested in learning more about his compositional technique

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

i realize that branca's stuff inhabits a different universe than what i'm doing. i'm not trying to mimic it, it's just what put the idea in my head. although i would be interested in learning more about his compositional technique

The point is, Matt, that one of the main reasons that Glenn (A guy with that name can't be all bad, even if he does spell it wrong ) can get away with it is *because* of his unconventional compositional technique.

Yeah, 50 guitars will sound different than two or three, but if you're looking at more traditional American blues-based composition - like what 99.9% of folks around here are used to - there gets to be a point of diminishing returns and, even more, a point in increasing negative effect. This even more critical the more you stray from a "pure" (so to speak) guitar picking a la Les Paul (the man, not the guitar) to something with heavy effects like over-gain, distortion pedals, etc.

The factors involved in reaching such a tipping point include the buildup of resonances and overtones in the instruments, increasing phase correlation problems, and the buildup of coloration and, frankly, mud, by stacking up too many tracks through a limited variety of microphones and microphone preamps.

if you want to spend an afternoon or two playing around with the idea, knock yourself out. I'll be the last person to stop you. But keep in mind that Glenn Branca's product is the result of years of experimentation and development in esoteric composition and recording (not to mention recording with top-shelf gear and engineering), not the result of playing around for a few hours with "home recording style" gear and a few I IV V variations.

That kind of necessarily limited experimentation is almost surely going to result in the kind of sound that properly merits the kind of responses you've gotten so far, like it or not. It's not just naysaying; it's previous experience down that particular road that's generating those responses.

And please understand, as distasteful as you might find those responses, when you just pooh pooh them, that doesn't sit too well in their craws either. Some of them may not be the most diplomatic in their responses, but they are, in their own way, trying to offer truthful answers and not just being trolls.

All that said, if you come back here on Monday with a new revelation and a self-made MP3 that proved everything I just said wrong, I'll be the first to pat you on the back and hapily congratulate you .

G.

 

[Matt C.]

look i wasn't trying to be rude by pooh poohing these responses, but it sounded like none of the people responding had any experience actually doing this, so i'll take their warnings with a grain of salt. and like you said, 99.9% of the people here are used to american blues-based stuff, which is not what i'm doing.

and i realize that budget recording means we have to manage our own expectations about our work, but i think it's pretty lame to come on the HOMERECORDING message board and go around saying "oh you can't do that, only the pros can do that".

 

[legionserial]

It really is kind of pointless though. If all the the tracks are doing the same thing, after a certain amount of layers, you aren't adding anything to the sound at all.

I do have experience with layering guitars. But only within my preferential style of music. And that experience told me that too many guitars doing the sme thing didn't sound so great to my ears.

It sounds to me that you are trying to create a sound rather than do something conventional like just have a big guitar sound. That's great, but asking for advice in that sort of thing is going to yield one (or both) of 2 responses. One being the answer that tells you factually what will happen, ie mud, phase cancellation, frequencies fighting; and the other response being to give at a try and see what you can do with it. As far as I can tell, both those answers are reasonable.

No one's trying to tell you what to do and what not to do, just telling you what will happen if you do.

 

[didgijimmy]

fwiw I just read somewhere that the smashing pumpkins used like 40 layers of guits on cherub rock. Flood even referred to them as the guitar overdub army or something. Just an instance where this worked (at least for my ears), but I think it was said on this sites somewhere else that because of Corgan's vocal register he was able to do this, and it would'nt work in most applications.
However I do agree with many that 50 guits with many being similiar is just nutz.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

look i wasn't trying to be rude by pooh poohing these responses, but it sounded like none of the people responding had any experience actually doing this, so i'll take their warnings with a grain of salt. and like you said, 99.9% of the people here are used to american blues-based stuff, which is not what i'm doing.

And since it wasn't until 30 posts into the thread that you mention that you are trying to do something different, it's not completely unreasonable that they didn't expect you to be part of the 0.1%.

We get questions here all the time from grinders and headbangers who want to stack an insane amount of guitars playing identical riffs under the assumption that more automatically means better, and in their cases it most certainly does not - for perfectly reasonable technical reasons that have zero to do with personal aesthetics. So when someone comes on saying they want to "layer" 50 guitars, the automatic reaction without any further qualifications is to believe that this is yet another one of those questions.

This is why I opened up with asking you where you heard 50 guitars layered, because it's something that is virtually never done (except in very rare cases like Mr. Branca.) And the reason it's virtually never done is because it at the least virtually never sounds any good, and at the most is virtually never necessary - 50 stacked guitars won't sound any different than 10 stacked guitars in most cases - again with esoterica like Branca's compositions being the rare exception.

and i realize that budget recording means we have to manage our own expectations about our work, but i think it's pretty lame to come on the HOMERECORDING message board and go around saying "oh you can't do that, only the pros can do that".

As "lame" as you may feel that response is, it is often true. There are limitations imposed by hardware and technique. I don't know what kind of gear you have, but unless you have some mics and preamps worth as much as your average entire HR project studio costs, a choice of several different guitar and amp combinations, and a room to play them in that does not hinder the quality of the recording, and the knowledge and experience of how to set up your gain structure to take advantage of the situation, mixing 50 simultaneous electric guitar tracks and not having the result sound like crap borders on fantasy.

G.

 

[Matt C.]

And since it wasn't until 30 posts into the thread that you mention that you are trying to do something different, it's not completely unreasonable that they didn't expect you to be part of the 0.1%.

sorry, i did say "slow droning guitar stuff", which i assumed would indicate something different than, you know, Metallica or Linkin Park or something

the knowledge and experience of how to set up your gain structure to take advantage of the situation

by asking this question in the first place, i was hoping to benefit from other people's knowledge and experience and learn something. do you have any recommendations about how to setup gain staging when stacking so many tracks? room mics or no room mics? why? etc....

 

[mjbphotos]

How about 1683 guitars layered?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIIFjMgVNgQ

You really can't tell there are more than 10.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

do you have any recommendations about how to setup gain staging when stacking so many tracks? room mics or no room mics? why? etc....

Specifics depend on your gear and your experience with it. What one does with a Mackie mixer and what one does with a GML preamp are not only going to be different things, but the selection of which to use with which mic on which track will vary.

Look, I don't know what sound you're going for or kind of arrangement your talking about (both extremely important to this question), but if I had to figure out how to get 50 electric guitars to cooperate on a mix, I'd:

- make sure to keep the signal chain and the noise floor on each track as small as possible. If there are lead guitars that need heavy special effecting, fine, but try to keep that stuff away from the accompaniment tracks as much as possible. The more noise you have on each track, the more it will build up and overcome the mix. This includes every step of the chain from the git pickup to the DAW (assuming you're recoding and editing digitally.)

- Try to mix up the make/model on four levels; guitar, amp, mic and preamp. And not just randomly mix them up, but select the combinations to fit the part each track is to play in the composition/arrangement. Is this guitar going to be playing the lower registers or have a bassier-type sound to it? then I'll pick the guitar and amp accodingly and use the mic/pre that brings out the best in the sound of that combo, and save the brighter guitar or brighter microphone for a brighter track. And so forth.

- You'll likely need to keep the signal level in check throughout the chain in order to satisfy #1. Keep it that way when going through the converters and into the DAW. Do not push the input levels on the DAW so that every track is loud enough on it's own. If you're coming in at -22dBFS and peaking at -15dBFS (or anything like that), that's just fine; you'll need all the headroom you can get when mixing that bad boy, and you'll want to keep the converted analog noise floor as low as possible on each one.

- Consider submixing your parts. Like an orchestra might submix the winds and the strings separately before bringing them together, or a rock band might submix the rhythm section, accompaniments and leads separately, you might want to break up you piece the same way, by each guitar's purpose in the composition, then bring them together as groups in a meta mix, tweaking as you go.

- Before you even get started, plan out your canvas; where things will be panned, whether they will be up-front or laid back in the mix, which chunk of the spectrum they are to dominate, and what their purpose is in the arrangement. Map it out ahead of time to reduce conflict; you don't want similar-sounding parts frequency or volume wise to step on each other unless they are specifically designed to double or compliment each other. Give each part it's "space" in the mix.

- Room mic only if/when you are recording several guitars as a sub-group simultaneously (even then, that could be dangerous phase-wise). Otherwise, all that room reflection can easily just build up over 50 tracks and add to the mud. Keep it close miked as much as possible, I would guess.

- Speaking of mud build-up, anything that is not purposely a bass track I'd high pass at about 80-100Hz at the very least. You don't want all that LF rumble from 50 mic stands on 50 tracks being bounced around by 50 amplifiers anywhere near your mix.

- What quality gear you don't have, rent if you can; it's a lot cheaper than buying it, and will sound one HELL of a lot better over 50 tracks than some $400 interface box with a few Chinese condensers plugged into it.

- Listen and make rough mixes as you go along. Unless you are the next Mozart (and I'm not saying you aren't) for whom every note from every specific instrument is an integral part of the production, you might find that you can get just what you're looking for with less effort and less tracks. Half of what Branca does with his live concerts with a million guitars is as much for the show and for the venue as it is for actual sonic effect. Get that stuff down on disc and you may very well find out that it will actually sound better with 30 guitars than with 50. Or you may not. But as you entreated us at the beginning; have an open mind either way...even more important, have an open ear.

G.

 

[noisewreck]

As the resident Sound Destroyer on this board I feel compelled to add to this thread.

Firstly, if you want insights and approaches into the not-so-ordinary stuff, I'd higly recommend you read RachMiel's columns in the Computer Music magazine. I know of him from the Native Instruments Reaktor forums where he contributes with many outstanding and out-of-this world Reaktor instruments that definitely push the boundaries of audio imagination. His columns in the Computer Music magazine are great as he goes into great lengths regarding music composition, incorporating classic ideas that have reached us from as far back as Baroque music into modern ways of doing things, and quite a bit of sound mangling ideas.

Due to the highly experimental nature of what you're doing, it would be difficult to give ideas as to mic placement and other things for having 50-100 layers of guitar drone... heck, you could even take a small electric fan, and use that to "strum" your strings. While you're doing that, why not stand right infront of the amp to even generate some feedback through your pickups? That might or might not some useful elements to your layers

The people that suggested that it is likely that the result will be just a mess are right. However, it could be a mess that's highly useful in the right context.

Aside from your mic technique and gain staging, it will also be important to figure out what notes you play. You might for example play some low notes with less distortion and some high notes with more distortion, thus creating some interesting chordal sonorities that might not be possible otherwise.

Other than this, some post-processing might add some useful touches. For example, you could use some filter plugin in your DAW and do filter sweeps using LFOs that are sync'd to the tempo. You might even do this to several tracks each with it's own filter that's being swept by a different filter (low-pass, band-pass, notch, phaser, high-pass... etc), using different frequencies for LFOs to make a nice, living-breathing organic stuff.

While having 50 layers of guitar while you're playing the same thing (or close to it) might be useful, it might be more useful if each track was doing something different.

Finally, listen to acoustic/orchestral works from 1960's by peopls such as Krzysztof Penderecki (for example his Threnody to the Victims of Hiroshima), Luciano Berio, Iannis Xenakis to see how these guys achieved some far-out textures with nothing but a string orchestra by having each player in the orchestra play something different, microtuning and such. This will definitely expand your horizons and give you some ideas to try out in a home studio environment to boot. If you can read music scores, even better. Follow the score of Threnody to the Victims of Hiroshima with the score and it will make your jaw drop.

Finally, a drone is not just a drone. It supposed to immerse the listener into a world, it shouldn't be static (unless you intend to turn your listener into a Zen Master ) Figure out ways to give it life.

Experiment, experiment, experiment.

 

[TerraMortim]

I don't know if someone already mentioned this... but try various inversions/octaves to different tracks. That'll thicken the shit out of it even more than different guitars/amps/settings.

The more I develop musically, the more I realize that the tricks are all in the arangement. You could do hardly any compression and mixing and still make it sounds somewhat decent with the right arrangement. Just chainging up things at that stage can make the biggest impact IMO. THEN reach for all of the compressors and EQs and shit.

 

[TerraMortim]

As the resident Sound Destroyer on this board I feel compelled to add to this thread.

Firstly, if you want insights and approaches into the not-so-ordinary stuff, I'd higly recommend you read RachMiel's columns in the Computer Music magazine. I know of him from the Native Instruments Reaktor forums where he contributes with many outstanding and out-of-this world Reaktor instruments that definitely push the boundaries of audio imagination. His columns in the Computer Music magazine are great as he goes into great lengths regarding music composition, incorporating classic ideas that have reached us from as far back as Baroque music into modern ways of doing things, and quite a bit of sound mangling ideas.

Due to the highly experimental nature of what you're doing, it would be difficult to give ideas as to mic placement and other things for having 50-100 layers of guitar drone... heck, you could even take a small electric fan, and use that to "strum" your strings. While you're doing that, why not stand right infront of the amp to even generate some feedback through your pickups? That might or might not some useful elements to your layers

The people that suggested that it is likely that the result will be just a mess are right. However, it could be a mess that's highly useful in the right context.

Aside from your mic technique and gain staging, it will also be important to figure out what notes you play. You might for example play some low notes with less distortion and some high notes with more distortion, thus creating some interesting chordal sonorities that might not be possible otherwise.

Other than this, some post-processing might add some useful touches. For example, you could use some filter plugin in your DAW and do filter sweeps using LFOs that are sync'd to the tempo. You might even do this to several tracks each with it's own filter that's being swept by a different filter (low-pass, band-pass, notch, phaser, high-pass... etc), using different frequencies for LFOs to make a nice, living-breathing organic stuff.

While having 50 layers of guitar while you're playing the same thing (or close to it) might be useful, it might be more useful if each track was doing something different.

Finally, listen to acoustic/orchestral works from 1960's by peopls such as Krzysztof Penderecki (for example his Threnody to the Victims of Hiroshima), Luciano Berio, Iannis Xenakis to see how these guys achieved some far-out textures with nothing but a string orchestra by having each player in the orchestra play something different, microtuning and such. This will definitely expand your horizons and give you some ideas to try out in a home studio environment to boot. If you can read music scores, even better. Follow the score of Threnody to the Victims of Hiroshima with the score and it will make your jaw drop.

Finally, a drone is not just a drone. It supposed to immerse the listener into a world, it shouldn't be static (unless you intend to turn your listener into a Zen Master ) Figure out ways to give it life.

Experiment, experiment, experiment.

Yep. You said it. You could have the same guitar running through the same gear, with the same effects, and still make it sound fat as hell if you arrange it in a way to make it fat.

I'd encourage anyone, regardless of instrument to anylize symphonic arrangements, and apply what you hear vs. see to even guitar arrangement. I've been doing that a lot latetely, and it's been very eye opening.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

The more I develop musically, the more I realize that the tricks are all in the arangement.

Terra, my man, that is not only exactly right, it is the answer to probably 80% of the questions on this BBS

Arrangement is what separates music from noise.

Arrangement is what makes a great mix.

And it is also what allows folks like Glenn Branca "get away" (so to speak) with what they do.

Mix to support the arrangement, and you can't go wrong.

G.