What type of mic to use?

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halfred

halfred

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Hi, new to forum and recording, hoping to get some feedback.
I'm an accomplished classical pianist with a year long goal of making a home recording of piano solos to send to an audio engineer for mastering. It's an ambitious project for me who started out knowing nothing about recording. After months of extensive research online and after incessantly combing ad infinitum through all of the relevant forums, I actually may have graduated from knowing nothing to knowing pratically nothing, a huge step for me, LOL.
My piano is a Steinway B situated in my livingroom/kitchen area approximately 13x20. Ceiling are about 9', the piano is sitting on a carpet and there is of course furniture, drapes, painting all over the walls. It's not the sound I want. A hall or even a bare studio would be better. The sound isn't "dead" but of course it doesn't have the reverb and reflections that I would like to hear. I've been told that hall reflections and reverb can be added by the engineer, so that's cool. The sound of the piano is actually huge with the lid open, rich and full of harmonics, everything that you would expect from a Steiway B and then some.
The recorder that I will be using, to simplify thins for myself, is a Tascam HD P2 with an Oade Bros. high definition upgrade. The mics that I purchase a while back are Pulsar 11, because what I thought I wanted was Neumann K184's which I couldn't really afford and I read in a Tech Mag review the Pulsars are basically copies of the Neumanns and sound remarkably good for the price. I have used them experimentally with a crappy Microtrack 11, and the Pulsars really do faithfully reproduce the sound of my piano. In my limited experience I think they are pretty good.
My dilemna is this. The general consensus online seems to be that in my type of situation, the best choice is a pair of small diaphram condenser mics as "they capture the nuance and detail" needed when recording the acoustic grand piano. However my experience is that when I listen to the tracks, they sound "TOO" detailed. I hear all the imperfections. Even on a well regulated Steinway, hammers voiced and the whole shebang. there is still variation in the tone from note to note and lets face it, the base, treble, and upper registers don't really blend, it's sort of an illusion. They only "relatively" blend. To my way of thinking, the total sound of the piano doesn't really sound very homogenous except from a distance. That's where it all comes together.
So I will be buying another set of mics to experiment with. I've read that large Diaphram condenser give a more general, rounded out, smoother type sound so I'm thinking I should try them. For instance the Rode NT2a or the SP C3 becuase of the large diaphram, the choice of patterns to experiment with etc. I'm particularly interested in trying omnidirectional to see if it gives some more "air" to the recordings. I've read that omni's are only good in a great room--just don't know. Mics are generally not returnable so whatever I buy next will be it. Anyone have any opinions on what makes sense to try and if you managed to get to the end of this, thanks for your patience!!!
 
I liked the piano with 3/4" diaphram LDC mics...Im using two AT3035 mics now...but Ive liked recordings with two KSM32 mics.

They seem to just be better than a pair of SDC in most any application.
 
Thanks for the feedback. Have you used SCD'S to record the piano? IF so, what do you hear different in the sound when you use LDC'S as opposed to the SDC'S?
Do you like the AT's better than the Shure's?
 
halfred said:
My dilemna is this. The general consensus online seems to be that in my type of situation, the best choice is a pair of small diaphram condenser mics as "they capture the nuance and detail" needed when recording the acoustic grand piano. However my experience is that when I listen to the tracks, they sound "TOO" detailed. I hear all the imperfections. Even on a well regulated Steinway, hammers voiced and the whole shebang. there is still variation in the tone from note to note and lets face it, the base, treble, and upper registers don't really blend, it's sort of an illusion. They only "relatively" blend. To my way of thinking, the total sound of the piano doesn't really sound very homogenous except from a distance. That's where it all comes together.
Click to expand...

As you've observed, "piano doesn't really sound very homogenous except from a distance". The piano is a very large object, and its sound emanates from the whole of this object.

When you get close to it with mikes (as you've done, I think, with your trial of the SDCs), you capture a considerable amount of detail which doesn't make its presence quite as intrusive if you were to mike the piano from some distance away. The advantage of close-miking, though, is that you can reduce the influence of the room, specially if you intend to add reverb in the mixing process. Conversely, if you mike from some distance, the room will have a greater influence on the recorded sound, and this may have an undesireable effect if the room isn't acoustically friendly (i.e. the acoustic characteristics of the room structure as well as ambient noise) towards the piano. It's a bit like viewing a large painting in a gallery from close up or from a distance.

So that's the choice you have to make: detailed and clean, or homogeneous and dirty. In effect, you are swapping two sorts of detail; the detail of the piano and associated performances noises, or the detail of the room and its ambient noises.

You didn't say where you were positioning the mikes, nor whether you had tried then in different positions. But I would try to get as far away from it as I could within that room; see what that sounds like. You would obviously be aware of the influence of the lid on the sound.

Here is an interesting article that deals with the topic. It may be of help:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may99/articles/recpiano.htm
 
Hi halfred, here's the link to a topic I started on another forum about a demo recording of Chopin Etude Op.10 no.8. There's basically three versions of the same recording; dry, AUMatrix Reverb, and one of the forum members kindly put on the reverb with Altiverb. I was using a couple of Sennheiser e914 mics in a room that was far from ideal for recording, so decided to capture the detail in the first instance. Now I appreciate the need to have a really good reverb.
 
gecko zzed said:
.. The advantage of close-miking, though, is that you can reduce the influence of the room, specially if you intend to add reverb in the mixing process. Conversely, if you mike from some distance, the room will have a greater influence on the recorded sound, and this may have an undesireable effect if the room isn't acoustically friendly (i.e. the acoustic characteristics of the room structure as well as ambient noise) towards the piano. It's a bit like viewing a large painting in a gallery from close up or from a distance.

So that's the choice you have to make: detailed and clean, or homogeneous and dirty. In effect, you are swapping two sorts of detail; the detail of the piano and associated performances noises, or the detail of the room and its ambient noises.
Click to expand...

Also you may want to consider partial sectioning of the spaces between the mics, piano, and the walls/ceiling with absorbing panels. The idea here is you are reducing the relative level of the hard reflections and room tone. And/or expanding slightly your working distance before the room overrides again if you look at it from that direction. Also having the mics backs to (or closer to) an absorption panel can open options in how the mic sees things also. I am a believer in the Haas effect when it comes to this; Close reflections (depending on their level) blur’. Distant reflections color less and set ‘behind the instrument. Big difference there.

We all run will do this balance act. But particularly for us that are working in less than spacious true recording spaces, :) or whenever we choose to limit the option of moving to the correct’ space ;) The room tone will always be there, the choice becomes how appropriate is it to the project/instrument, therefore how much to suppress or use it.
It could easily be quite a bit bigger deal than the mics.
 
Thanks all for the feedback,
I've considerd all of it. I found that the bend of the piano, lid of course open, is the best area. I've recorded with my two m-audio Pulsars in XY anywhere from right at the rim to 6' out from the bend, which is as far as I can go. Haven't tried spaced pair or ORTF yet. I notice that most classical piano recordists are split about evenly between using SDC's or LDC's. I'm thinking of buying a pair of LDC's as I have read that they tend to show a little less detail and smooth out the sound a bit. I feel that the SDC's that I have may give too much detail for the sound I'm after, like the sound is being put under a microscope. I'm considering buying LDC pair that has switchable patterns. Does anyone think that an omni pattern or figure 8 pattern might be something whorthwhile to explore given the physical limitations of the space. The other alternative is to buy a pair of straight cardioid LCD's to experiment with. Have to stay in the budget-mid price range and can only afford to buy one pair. They will not be returnable due to state laws.
 
halfred said:
Thanks for the feedback. Have you used SCD'S to record the piano? IF so, what do you hear different in the sound when you use LDC'S as opposed to the SDC'S?
Do you like the AT's better than the Shure's?
Click to expand...

Ive used SDCs and have found the LDCs to be fuller...but like I said...the medium size 3/4" capsules are better than the 1" at this and most instruments.

I really am impressed by the sound of the AT3035 mics for piano and overheads but I still like the 2 Shure KSM32 mics better still.

The engineer that just made the last couple of Steely Dan records used the KSM32 mics exclusively on all instruments.
 
halfred said:
Hi, new to forum and recording, hoping to get some feedback.
I'm an accomplished classical pianist with a year long goal of making a home recording of piano solos to send to an audio engineer for mastering. It's an ambitious project for me who started out knowing nothing about recording. After months of extensive research online and after incessantly combing ad infinitum through all of the relevant forums, I actually may have graduated from knowing nothing to knowing pratically nothing, a huge step for me, LOL.
My piano is a Steinway B situated in my livingroom/kitchen area approximately 13x20. Ceiling are about 9', the piano is sitting on a carpet and there is of course furniture, drapes, painting all over the walls. It's not the sound I want. A hall or even a bare studio would be better. The sound isn't "dead" but of course it doesn't have the reverb and reflections that I would like to hear. I've been told that hall reflections and reverb can be added by the engineer, so that's cool. The sound of the piano is actually huge with the lid open, rich and full of harmonics, everything that you would expect from a Steiway B and then some.
The recorder that I will be using, to simplify thins for myself, is a Tascam HD P2 with an Oade Bros. high definition upgrade. The mics that I purchase a while back are Pulsar 11, because what I thought I wanted was Neumann K184's which I couldn't really afford and I read in a Tech Mag review the Pulsars are basically copies of the Neumanns and sound remarkably good for the price. I have used them experimentally with a crappy Microtrack 11, and the Pulsars really do faithfully reproduce the sound of my piano. In my limited experience I think they are pretty good.
My dilemna is this. The general consensus online seems to be that in my type of situation, the best choice is a pair of small diaphram condenser mics as "they capture the nuance and detail" needed when recording the acoustic grand piano. However my experience is that when I listen to the tracks, they sound "TOO" detailed. I hear all the imperfections. Even on a well regulated Steinway, hammers voiced and the whole shebang. there is still variation in the tone from note to note and lets face it, the base, treble, and upper registers don't really blend, it's sort of an illusion. They only "relatively" blend. To my way of thinking, the total sound of the piano doesn't really sound very homogenous except from a distance. That's where it all comes together.
So I will be buying another set of mics to experiment with. I've read that large Diaphram condenser give a more general, rounded out, smoother type sound so I'm thinking I should try them. For instance the Rode NT2a or the SP C3 becuase of the large diaphram, the choice of patterns to experiment with etc. I'm particularly interested in trying omnidirectional to see if it gives some more "air" to the recordings. I've read that omni's are only good in a great room--just don't know. Mics are generally not returnable so whatever I buy next will be it. Anyone have any opinions on what makes sense to try and if you managed to get to the end of this, thanks for your patience!!!
Click to expand...

You might want to try a couple of ribbon mics.

Check this out http://www.oktavamodshop.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_24&products_id=36
 
The best sound I got from the grand piano was with two Neumann M149's. Depending on the sound you're after you can choose for ORTF in hyper cardioid pattern, AB in omni at some distance from the piano, or MS when the room sounds really good and you want a winde stereo image.

Remember, the grand piano is one of the most difficult instruments to record.
 
thanks for suggestion Han

Tube mics are another option I'm considering but the Neumann
is way out of my range.
 
halfred said:
Tube mics are another option I'm considering but the Neumann
is way out of my range.
Click to expand...

read this:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may99/articles/recpiano.htm

Do you have a clip that you can post for us to listen to?

I think it's really a matter of trial and error. I say if it takes you a week to find the best mic setup, then let it take a week. I'll try my best to verbalize my thought process as if I was working out the issue there myself.

From your description, it sounds like your piano is at the mercy of what the room is doing. If the reverb is excessive and ends up clouding clarity , you might want to opt for close micing. What features are you exactly wanting to capture from *your* piano? What does it sound like naturally? (Describing it might help you visualize the recording process better).

Are you going for a hard/sharp keys type sound?
Soft/round keys type sound?
Exaggerated, full and deep type body?
Or just like more reserved type flat body?
Is the reverb in the room excessive in your opinion?

I ask because each scenario comes with a different setup.

The idea is to capture the attack (that initial spike) and residual body in a balanced and natural way (if that's what you want). So where you place the mics is going to have a major impact on that. The closer to the hammer, the more the attack.

Another issue is the stereo image. If you want a wide stereo image, then naturally, you're gonna have to spread the mics further apart. The problem is, if you go to fair apart, you create a "hole" in the middle of your image, so you may need another 1 or 2 mics to fill in the image. This of course is up to your ears to decide.

Another issue associated with multiple mics on a piano is phase alignment. It's very possible that two mics might not get a complete capture of your monster, so you could easily throw in a 3rd, 4th...shit, I've seen 10 mics on a piano before. Phase alignment, in short, is the relationship of two or more mics in relation to one another. If setup incorrectly, your image would sound like it has a flanging or chorusing effect. The result is a very akwardly aligned and bodlyless piano sound. Very thin and brittle.

In terms of buying mics, here's a heads up: It helps to know what piano type of sound you have and what sound you want.

-Small Diaphram condensers (depending on the quality) are good at reinforcing your stereo image from a distance and maintaining that nuance you might want when used up close. SDC, however, don't usually handle high SPL (sound pressure) as well as dynamic mics. Also, not incredibly big on body unless at somewhat of a distance. In case you're a loud player. Can be a bit problematic with naturally hard/spikey pianos.

-Large Diaphram condensers (non tube) are good for the above purposes and best when trying to pull more body and weight out of your image. These tend to go well more towards the resonant chambers in the piano. A little less problematic with hard/spikey pianos.

-Tube mics naturally tend to round out sharp transients a bit. So unless you really want a "round" keys type piano with a little less attack, I would be cautious. They tend to have great dynamic range, but sometimes higher self noise than non tube designs.

-Dynamic mics are not usually recommended for pianos, however, these do great with overly "harsh/spikey" pianos, loud players, or situations where you want to leave out the room ambiance as much as possible.



I actually finished tracking an upright piano Baldwin here at home earlier this week for an album I'm working on with two very unconventional (and cheap) mics that I sought out for odd jobs like this:

picture.php


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The DBX RTA-M mics pictured above are originally intended for live sound system calibration. They are technically "reference" mics. Naturally, because of their pencil thin design, this leaves a smaller diaphragm with a much faster response time. In other words, a stereo pair of these mics sounds amazingly realistic and smooth, which works out great for certain things (like piano). All at 100 bucks each.

In my example, the Baldwin sits right up against a wall in the living room with tiled floors and 12 ft high ceilings. The baldwin is naturally kind of soft and round. Not really a hard edged type piano. It's a pretty reverberant room, so I went for more of a close mic technique. I opted a stereo pair aimed towards the piano action out of about 4-5 different setups possible just for upright pianos alone. I did hit it with some compression and EQ to get it to fit in the "pocket".
 
Last edited:
LeeRosario said:
read this:
From your description, it sounds like your piano is at the mercy of what the room is doing. If the reverb is excessive and ends up clouding clarity , you might want to opt for close micing. What features are you exactly wanting to capture from *your* piano? What does it sound like naturally? (Describing it might help you visualize the recording process better).
Click to expand...

Many times draping the moving blankets over the piano will defeat a less than desirable room...since it is better to record a piano at its location than to move the instrument to the studio.

Ive recorded a concert pianist before and we went to a Jenkins store and we got to "Try out" an Englehoffer and bring mics and a recorder after hours...sure I might go to hell for lying...but it worked fine.
 
darrin_h2000 said:
Many times draping the moving blankets over the piano will defeat a less than desirable room...since it is better to record a piano at its location than to move the instrument to the studio.

Ive recorded a concert pianist before and we went to a Jenkins store and we got to "Try out" an Englehoffer and bring mics and a recorder after hours...sure I might go to hell for lying...but it worked fine.
Click to expand...

Oh yeah, for sure. I never intend for anyone to move a piano :D. I left mine as is for fear of detuning it after the 150bucks I payed to get it tuned.

If only music shops where that cool around here...I need to start making some music store friends :D
 
I've never tried recording piano before but I think I'd probably be using 4 mics.
Two figure eight ribbons in Blumlein configuration (Right over your head or behind the piano and two condenser mics a few feet back. Not necessarily pencils either.
That gives your producer 4 tracks which will immediately turn into 5 and gives her/him the choice of blending or simply just choosing one method over the other.
 
I've recorded grands with two dynamics & it worked out well - it had to be close mic'd because the floors were wood & tended to vib sympathetically & the strainght walls caused some standing waves.
A pair of dynamics each about 1/2 in from each side of the keyboard pointing just beyond the hammers. Ended up quite nice - well the owner/player was impressed & that's the point after all.
At home, parlour grand (1/2 way between baby & full), I've used SDCs - specifically a pair of Sony 19Bs - worked really well but then I was trying to please myself so I'm no judge.
I haven't yet used my naidant mics on a piano - will have to for reference at least.
Based on Jim Lad's suggestions I've begun to think about a Binaural config.
 
LeeRosario said:
Oh yeah, for sure. I never intend for anyone to move a piano :D. I left mine as is for fear of detuning it after the 150bucks I payed to get it tuned.

If only music shops where that cool around here...I need to start making some music store friends :D
Click to expand...

If they think you are going to buy a $100,000 piano and you bring a Maestro from the KC philharmonic...they do accomedate you...lol.
 
Yeah I've rerad there are alot of ways to mic a grand piano and I believe it. Read a ton of articles so far. Still experimenting with the pulsars which give a very authentic sound image of the piano but methinks it may not be what I'm after. I want to purchase one more budget pair of mics, LDC's. I have read that they give a more full bodied image and tend to smooth things out. The SDC's sort of make my piano sound like it's being "examined" under a "sound microscope." The best and only place for mic placement given my living room space is 4-6' out from the bend, lid fully open, mics place parallel with the top of the open lid, pointing down. I'd like to experiment with omni's, but many have said (including Michael Joly) that omnis in a not so good room would need to be very close to the sound source or they would sound "roomish" whatever that means, I didn't want to bother him with more questions. Close micing is not really an option. Really I think in recordingclassical on a grand piano (mine is 7') the sound really doesn't blend till at least 10-15 feet away. I can go back 6' at the most. I've been told that omnis at 6' distance are a bad choice but I don't know for sure since i don't own a pair. So I'm considering getting a pair of Rode nt1000's---a lot of classical pianist seem to rave about them. I've read that they have incredibly low noise which I thing is crucial since the mics will be place at a distance (4-6') and the gain needs to be cranked up. In this scenario, the Pulsars are too noisy. The other option I was considering was the AT 2035 (or even AT 2050 or AKG 420,to try out the omni option.) I did hear a recording of guitar using the AT4050 and was blown away. Great player and probably really fine guitar as well. I need to make a decision and can only afford one more pair of mics, and they are all non returnable. So many mics, so little time!
 
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