Guitars in a commercial music!

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jerberson12

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Hi guys,

does anybody have an idea how they record guitar tracks especially distortion in a commercial rock music like Green day, Blink 182, or Good Charlotte? Did they use traditional miced cab/amp, or guitar through Di through a guitar softwares?

How do they do it nowadays in a computer era?
 
jerberson12 said:
Hi guys,

does anybody have an idea how they record guitar tracks especially distortion in a commercial rock music like Green day, Blink 182, or Good Charlotte? Did they use traditional miced cab/amp, or guitar through Di through a guitar softwares?

How do they do it nowadays in a computer era?
Click to expand...

With VERY rare exceptions, what you're hearing in rock music is a couple of tracks of a guitar into a real amp generally mic'd up with some variant of a SM57. Modeling software has gotten fairly good, but with the exception of a couple styles where the "artificialness" works (the whole "djent" thing - Meshuggah and the like - as well as maybe Orgy-like electronica/metal hybrid stuff), if budget and volume are no obstacle (where they aren't, in pro studios), then a good amp turned up to breath a bit, well-mic'd by a competent engineeer, will give you better results hands down.
 
jerberson12 said:
Hi guys,

does anybody have an idea how they record guitar tracks especially distortion in a commercial rock music like Green day, Blink 182, or Good Charlotte? Did they use traditional miced cab/amp, or guitar through Di through a guitar softwares?

How do they do it nowadays in a computer era?
Click to expand...

Listen to Green Day Live. That is how. Guitar to amp played loud in a big room.
 
DrewPeterson7 said:
With VERY rare exceptions, what you're hearing in rock music is a couple of tracks of a guitar into a real amp generally mic'd up with some variant of a SM57. Modeling software has gotten fairly good, but with the exception of a couple styles where the "artificialness" works (the whole "djent" thing - Meshuggah and the like - as well as maybe Orgy-like electronica/metal hybrid stuff), if budget and volume are no obstacle (where they aren't, in pro studios), then a good amp turned up to breath a bit, well-mic'd by a competent engineeer, will give you better results hands down.
Click to expand...

Drew just saved me writing everything I was going to write.
 
i hear almost nothing but mesas on the radio.....

green day sounds like p-90s to me
 
I disagree on the sm57 thing....

most "pro" guitar recordings I have heard and seen the pro tools sessions of consist of some form of multiple amps using multiple mics over multiple takes, with heavy consideration on speakers and cabinet design.

something like....

Fender D-ville open back with jensens, with Royer 121 and U87 and D112 behind amp
Vox AC 30 Celestion Blues with MD421 and SM7b
Blue Bottle B6 room

Dist Guitar
Marshall JCM 800 combo greenbacks Royer 121 and u47FET
Bogner Custom Shop SM57, MD421, AEAR84
Mesa Boogie Triple Rec chrome backs MD421,
Blue Bottle B6 room
 
IMHO...I think the whole process of recording electric guitars can be easily over-engineered, and people will spend way to much time doing things very complicated and over the top...when all it might take is a guitar, amp, mic...and someone that knows how to play them to get the tones he/she needs.

Yeah...there's something about the 15 layered cake guitar...but that's not always the best way to get the best sounding guitar, that's just one way, and IMHO, it's overused for too much stuff.
IOW...many people seem to think that you HAVE TO use at least 3-4 mics and then do about a dozen layers to get any kind of *good* guitar sound.
That approach might only be good for some types of music/songs...for the rest...I would start with the K.I.S.S. approach (and I don't mean the band, KISS) :D

I find one mic for one guitar track works great on a lot of stuff....and the variety of tones comes from the choice of guitar, amp, cab, mic...and mostly, the player!
 
The sound everybody is used to on guitar is the marriage of the:

1. great guitar playing
2. great tube amp
3. great mic

Don't accept anything that is good or even really good, it has to be great.

While some do use SM57's for guitar (Santana did in a friend of mine's studio) I doubt it's that common in great studios. I have a SM57 and almost never use it, maybe once a decade. It sounds inferior to other choices.

What I use is my Grandma's 50's tube Sony tape recorder and a U87 or KM84. I have 2 Fender tube amps here but the Sony sounds better. George Harrison used a tube amp and a U67 on the Beatles albums and that's the sound I strive for. If you think you can get that sound with a SM57 you're nuts.

I like a studio guitar amp to be small. My Fender Champ or stuff like Mesa's with 12's are way too big to me. The Sony I use is about 1 watt and has a maybe 4" speaker.

I'd look around for a tube amp from an old tv, console stereo, home organ and mic that.

But do what works for you, all of this doesn't matter in the big picture.
 
iownrocknroll said:
I disagree on the sm57 thing....
Click to expand...

I ALMOST didn't include that, because I figured it'd kick off some controversy. :p

There's a lot of way to get great guitar sounds on tape. A SM57 or some variant (I also use an Audix i5 a fair amount) is certainly not the only way, but it's a very popular one, either used alone or in conjunction with another mic. In that I think it's safe to say the OP hasn't had much experience micing guitar amps, I figured some direction in that regard would be useful, and recommending something in the SM57 school of thought as a starting point struck me as much more useful than "mic'd up with a dynamic, a decent ribbon, with a $2k condensor back about 5' in the room, and then doubled with six other amps."

I mean, you're correct, that's totally a valid way to get great sounds. But if he's chasing that "professional" guitar sound and he's looking for a plugin to get him there, I think that's probably overkill. The SM57 isn't my favorite mic by any means, but if you can't get at least a "good" guitar tone out of one, then there's something wrong somewhere else in the chain - wrong placement, wrong amp, wrong settings, wrong guitar, or wrong player, possibly all of the above.

Re: the small amp with a 4" speaker - that will definitely work in a lot of situations (see darrin's comment rght below this). But, importantly, not for everything - it's simply not capable of generating the same sort of gain structure as my Recto Roadster, for example, or the same low end clarity (a concern if you like me play a seven string).
 
But Jimmy Page got his sound from a cheap supro 5 watt tube amp with an SM57 and made records that sold more than anything the Beatles did.
 
the OP said Commericial recording. I have a few PT from the killers, FOB, Muse and the beatles.

that said, the first three are all multiple mic, multi amps, and 3 'comped' performance.

Hell Matt Belamy from Muse runs a Vox AC 30 Head, Diesel Head and Marshall JCM900 all at the same time each with it's own cab, blended together...that's the LIVE guitar sound.
 
darrin_h2000 said:
But Jimmy Page got his sound from a cheap supro 5 watt tube amp with an SM57 and made records that sold more than anything the Beatles did.
Click to expand...

A friend of mine has two Supros. One is large like a Twin with 2 12's, the other a small 10". He said the big one was what Jimmy Page used. I don't know. We used the small one for several recordings and I loved it using a U67 through a Summit tube mic pre.

I think Supro was made by Valco, and they sold amps under lots of names like Silvertone, Oahu, National and many, many others.

Those are fantastic recording amps!
 
Ive seen it...it had a single 10"...theres a few options out there nowdays for low wattage tube amps...I have one designed for use with Harp but it makes a monster tone with a tele.
 
Seafroggys said:
I'm sorry, but please show me these stats.
Click to expand...

I can't speak to the SM57, but it's well-known that Page used a small Supro amp for the first Zep album.

Back to the OP: one item that is coming into use more frequently is the speaker simulator. The guitar and any FX pedals are run through an amp head, into the speaker simulator, and into ProTools or whatever.
 
Seafroggys said:
I'm sorry, but please show me these stats.
Click to expand...

Billboard.com has Led Zeppelin 4 at number 2 in all time sales...the Beatles "White Album" which is a compellation is sitting arround 10...it sat at number one of all time for studio albums for most of the last 14 year...held out of the top position by a greatest hits collection...which isnt a studio album.

And Led Zeppelin 2 and "Physical Grafitti" both sold more than the Beatles highest selling studio record which isnt even in the top 20...the rest of thier collection all fall in the top 100...where the beatles only have 3 more CDs on that list.

Its the number of Beatles albums that give them and advantage...Led Zep only had 9 and the beatles had 17.

Look at another stat...the Beatles have Shea stadium as thier largest croud...but a Led Zeppelin show in Bathe England drew a crowd bigger than Woodstock...and it is still on the record books...over 1/2 million and people paid for it...woodstock was a free show.

George Harrison has been quoted as being in awe of them...theres a clip of him saying that backstage at a Zeppelin show

Here is the RIAA compilings so...Thriller has sold 9 million since MJs death...having him killed was the best move that Sony corp ever made...lol..they are in order with millions sold.

29 EAGLES/THEIR GREATEST HITS 1971 - 1975 EAGLES ELEKTRA
28 THRILLER JACKSON, MICHAEL LEGACY / EPIC
23 LED ZEPPELIN IV LED ZEPPELIN ATLANTIC
23 THE WALL PINK FLOYD COLUMBIA
22 BACK IN BLACK AC/DC EPIC
21 DOUBLE LIVE BROOKS, GARTH CAPITOL NASHVILLE
21 GREATEST HITS VOLUME I & VOLUME II JOEL, BILLY COLUMBIA
20 COME ON OVER TWAIN, SHANIA MERCURY NASHVILLE
19 RUMOURS FLEETWOOD MAC WARNER BROS.
19 THE BEATLES BEATLES, THE APPLE
18 APPETITE FOR DESTRUCTION GUNS 'N ROSES GEFFEN
17 BOSTON BOSTON EPIC
17 THE BODYGUARD (SOUNDTRACK) HOUSTON, WHITNEY ARISTA
17 NO FENCES BROOKS, GARTH CAPITOL
16 THE BEATLES 1967 - 1970 BEATLES, THE APPLE
16 HOTEL CALIFORNIA EAGLES ASYLUM
16 PHYSICAL GRAFFITI LED ZEPPELIN SWAN SONG
16 GREATEST HITS JOHN, ELTON MCA
16 JAGGED LITTLE PILL MORISSETTE, ALANIS MAVERICK
16 CRACKED REAR VIEW HOOTIE & THE BLOWFISH ATLANTIC
15 SUPERNATURAL SANTANA ARISTA
15 GREATEST HITS JOURNEY COLUMBIA
15 THE BEATLES 1962 - 1966 BEATLES, THE APPLE
15 SATURDAY NIGHT FEVER (SOUNDTRACK) BEE GEES RSO
15 BORN IN THE U.S.A. SPRINGSTEEN, BRUCE COLUMBIA
15 DARK SIDE OF THE MOON PINK FLOYD HARVEST
14 BAT OUT OF HELL MEAT LOAF CLEVELAND INTERNATIONAL
14 ROPIN' THE WIND BROOKS, GARTH CAPITOL
14 SIMON & GARFUNKEL'S GREATEST HITS SIMON & GARFUNKEL COLUMBIA
14 ...BABY ONE MORE TIME SPEARS, BRITNEY JIVE
14 BACKSTREET BOYS BACKSTREET BOYS JIVE
14 METALLICA METALLICA ELEKTRA
13 TEN PEARL JAM EPIC
13 WHITNEY HOUSTON HOUSTON, WHITNEY ARISTA
13 PURPLE RAIN (SOUNDTRACK) PRINCE AND THE REVOLUTION WARNER BROS.
13 BRUCE SPRINGSTEEN & E STREET BAND LIVE 1975 - '85 SPRINGSTEEN, BRUCE COLUMBIA
13 MILLENNIUM BACKSTREET BOYS JIVE
13 GREATEST HITS 1974-1978 MILLER, STEVE BAND CAPITOL
12 KENNY ROGERS' GREATEST HITS ROGERS, KENNY LIBERTY
12 FORREST GUMP SOUNDTRACK EPIC
12 YOURSELF OR SOMEONE LIKE YOU MATCHBOX TWENTY ATLANTIC
12 NO JACKET REQUIRED COLLINS, PHIL ATLANTIC
12 HYSTERIA DEF LEPPARD MERCURY
12 II BOYZ II MEN MOTOWN
12 ABBEY ROAD BEATLES, THE APPLE
12 WIDE OPEN SPACES DIXIE CHICKS MONUMENT
12 HOT ROCKS ROLLING STONES, THE LONDON
12 SLIPPERY WHEN WET BON JOVI MERCURY
12 THE WOMAN IN ME TWAIN, SHANIA MERCURY NASHVILLE
12 LED ZEPPELIN II LED ZEPPELIN ATLANTIC
12 BREATHLESS KENNY G ARISTA
12 PIECES OF YOU JEWEL ATLANTIC
11 FALLING INTO YOU DION, CELINE 550 MUSIC
11 SGT. PEPPER'S LONELY HEARTS CLUB BAND BEATLES, THE CAPITOL
11 EAGLES GREATEST HITS VOLUME II EAGLES ASYLUM
11 DIRTY DANCING SOUNDTRACK RCA
11 HUMAN CLAY CREED WIND-UP RECORDS
11 DEVIL WITHOUT A CAUSE KID ROCK LAVA
11 UP! TWAIN, SHANIA MERCURY NASHVILLE
11 HOUSES OF THE HOLY LED ZEPPELIN ATLANTIC
11 AEROSMITH'S GREATEST HITS AEROSMITH COLUMBIA
11 NO STRINGS ATTACHED 'N SYNC JIVE
11 CRAZYSEXYCOOL TLC LAFACE
11 JAMES TAYLOR'S GREATEST HITS TAYLOR, JAMES WARNER BROS.
11 TITANIC SOUNDTRACK SONY CLASSICAL
11 SPEAKERBOXXX / THE LOVE BELOW OUTKAST SO SO DEF
10 FAITH MICHAEL, GEORGE COLUMBIA
10 LET'S TALK ABOUT LOVE DION, CELINE 550 MUSIC/EPIC
10 PYROMANIA DEF LEPPARD MERCURY
10 THE STRANGER JOEL, BILLY COLUMBIA
10 COME AWAY WITH ME JONES, NORAH BLUE NOTE
10 PLEASE HAMMER DON'T HURT 'EM HAMMER CAPITOL
10 GREATEST HITS CLINE, PATSY MCA
10 UNPLUGGED CLAPTON, ERIC REPRISE
10 FLY DIXIE CHICKS MONUMENT
10 'N SYNC 'N SYNC RCA
10 LED ZEPPELIN LED ZEPPELIN ATLANTIC
10 HYBRID THEORY LINKIN PARK WARNER BROS.
10 GREATEST HITS PETTY, TOM & THE HEARTBREAKERS MCA
10 TRAGIC KINGDOM NO DOUBT TRAUMA/INTERSCOPE
10 DOOKIE GREEN DAY REPRISE
10 NEVERMIND NIRVANA DGC
10 THE IMMACULATE COLLECTION MADONNA SIRE
10 LIKE A VIRGIN MADONNA SIRE
10 CAN'T SLOW DOWN RICHIE, LIONEL MOTOWN
10 LEGEND MARLEY, BOB & THE WAILERS ISLAND
10 TAPESTRY KING, CAROLE ODE
10 THE BEST OF THE DOORS DOORS, THE ELEKTRA
10 BEST OF THE DOOBIES DOOBIE BROTHERS WARNER BROS.
10 LIFE AFTER DEATH NOTORIOUS B.I.G. BAD BOY/ARISTA
10 THE LION KING SOUNDTRACK DISNEYLAND
10 SEVENS BROOKS, GARTH CAPITOL NASHVILLE
10 GARTH BROOKS BROOKS, GARTH CAPITOL
10 1984 (MCMLXXXIV) VAN HALEN WARNER BROS.
10 THE HITS BROOKS, GARTH LIBERTY
10 VAN HALEN VAN HALEN WARNER BROS.
10 OOPS!...I DID IT AGAIN SPEARS, BRITNEY JIVE
10 MUSIC BOX CAREY, MARIAH COLUMBIA
10 DAYDREAM CAREY, MARIAH COLUMBIA
10 CONFESSIONS USHER SO SO DEF
 
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Zaphod B said:
I can't speak to the SM57, but it's well-known that Page used a small Supro amp for the first Zep album.
Click to expand...

There is a book out that Andy Johns explianed what he used on the led Zeppelin records...and some articals on Eddie Kramer (Almost sounds like a VanHalen fan...lol.).
 
Before I check up on other stats, I will say that you are false in your first paragraph...the White Album *IS NOT* a compilation album. Your broken English makes the rest of that paragraph hard to read.

Different organizations have different statistics. Even you show two conflicting reports....Billboard has LZ4 at #2 (which I know is false) and the RIAA has it at #3. Also, note that the RIAA list is not correct anyway since double albums are counted as two (Dark Side of the Moon has sold more copies than The Wall, for example, but since The Wall is a double album it is artificially higher on the list).

You are also incorrect in another stat...Shea Stadium was *NOT* their biggest concert...that's only memorialized because it was the first big stadium show, and thus lots of emphasis is put on it in reading material, making people only think of it specifically. If memory recalls, their show in the Philippines (the one where they snubbed the first lady and were held hostage at the airport) was their largest in terms of audience size.

Now, that large Zeppelin show you speak of, was it a LZ concert or was it a festival? In my 1996 Guinness Book of World Records, I distinctly remember the largest outdoor concert for a specific artist was for Paul McCartney in Rio de Janero, the date of which I cannot recall, but whose numbers ranged in the 250,000 range. Now even if that record has been broken since 1996, Led Zeppelin would not have played any shows aside from the O2 since 1996 (and that wasn't even that big as far as audience attendance) and Woodstock was twice the size of the McCartney concert anyway (and the 1970 Isle of Wight festival was even bigger, but I digress).

Now this is not to say that LZ did play to a larger crowd than The Beatles at the Philippines, but when you have continuously got your facts and statistics wrong about facts I do know about, it makes me wonder about the information that I don't know about.

George Harrison has been quoted as being in awe of them...theres a clip of him saying that backstage at a Zeppelin show
Click to expand...

This has no merit on our discussion. I have said nothing of Led Zeppelin's artistic qualities. I enjoy them myself. So there's no dispute there.

I will do some research and pull some more information later.

EDIT: Also, Billboard and RIAA is....AMERICAN! Not British. Not Japanese. Not European. It is only one market.

EDIT2: Here is a list of largest concert attendants, including single acts and festivals

1. Rod Stewart at Copacabana Beach [3,500,000]
2. Metallica in Moscow, Tushino Airfield [1,600,000+]
3. Garth Brooks in Central Park [980,000]
4. New York Philharmonic in Central Park [800,000]
5. Steve Wozniak's 1983 US Festival [670,000]
6. Summer Jam at Watkins Glen [600,000+]
7. Isle of Wight Festival [600,000]
8. Simon & Garfunkel in Central Park [500,000]
9. Toronto SARS Benefit [450,000]
10. Woodstock 1969 [400,000]
11. Blockbuster RockFest 1997 [385,000]

Hmmm, so Rod Stewart's performance was bigger than McCartney's at the same venue (odd, wonder why Guinness didn't include it). Further research reveals that Zeppelin's largest concert was at the Silverdome in 1977, which had 77,000 people. Of course, Led Zeppelin's website has several other things wrong...it states that a 1973 concert with 56,800 people broke the record set by The Beatles in 1965 of 55,000. Not only was that in reference to their performance(s) at Shea Stadium (yes they played there multiple times), their Philipenne concert, as stated earlier, was bigger and not to mention that Grand Funk Railroad broke The Beatles record at SHEA STADIUM ITSELF in 1971. Further research must be conducted.
 
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Seafroggys said:
Before I check up on other stats, I will say that you are false in your first paragraph...the White Album *IS NOT* a compilation album. Your broken English makes the rest of that paragraph hard to read.

Different organizations have different statistics. Even you show two conflicting reports....Billboard has LZ4 at #2 (which I know is false) and the RIAA has it at #3. Also, note that the RIAA list is not correct anyway since double albums are counted as two (Dark Side of the Moon has sold more copies than The Wall, for example, but since The Wall is a double album it is artificially higher on the list).

You are also incorrect in another stat...Shea Stadium was *NOT* their biggest concert...that's only memorialized because it was the first big stadium show, and thus lots of emphasis is put on it in reading material, making people only think of it specifically. If memory recalls, their show in the Philippines (the one where they snubbed the first lady and were held hostage at the airport) was their largest in terms of audience size.

Now, that large Zeppelin show you speak of, was it a LZ concert or was it a festival? In my 1996 Guinness Book of World Records, I distinctly remember the largest outdoor concert for a specific artist was for Paul McCartney in Rio de Janero, the date of which I cannot recall, but whose numbers ranged in the 250,000 range. Now even if that record has been broken since 1996, Led Zeppelin would not have played any shows aside from the O2 since 1996 (and that wasn't even that big as far as audience attendance) and Woodstock was twice the size of the McCartney concert anyway (and the 1970 Isle of Wight festival was even bigger, but I digress).

Now this is not to say that LZ did play to a larger crowd than The Beatles at the Philippines, but when you have continuously got your facts and statistics wrong about facts I do know about, it makes me wonder about the information that I don't know about.



This has no merit on our discussion. I have said nothing of Led Zeppelin's artistic qualities. I enjoy them myself. So there's no dispute there.

I will do some research and pull some more information later.

EDIT: Also, Billboard and RIAA is....AMERICAN! Not British. Not Japanese. Not European. It is only one market.
Click to expand...

The list changed due to the spike in sales of thriller...it is in the second spot now....I found the current list after I wrote the first paragraph...still LZ sold more than the highest selling Beatles album compelation or not so my statement was true.

The Bathe England show is still the largest concert gathering ever there were several acts...but LZ was the headliner...most called the Monsters of rock festivals Van Halen concerts bacause they were why everyone came...same with Oz fest...and did you know that LZ made 20 times the fee to perform live than the Beatles ever did...the buisness model set up by Grant was much better than Col. Parker's...he invented the concert t-shirts and brought rock into the football staduims....and with the exception of badfinger was the formula rock bands have been following for the last 40 years.

The double album thing would be valad if they charged double for them...but they were normally only a few dollars more.
 
Hmmm, it seems that I was incorrect about the Philipinnes performance, though not entirely. They played two shows on the same day at the same venue - the first to 30,000, the second to 50,000. So they played to 80,000 paying people in a single day, which if you consider maybe some of them attended both shows, then you're looking at a total comparable to LZ's top shows. But yes, one of their Shea Stadium performances remains their biggest single concert.

Btw, I am not discussing how much money the band makes from its albums, from its concerts, from royalties, etc. I, of all people, know that The Beatles got really shitty deals up and down the shit fan ladder. There's no doubt about that. But we're talking people, bodies, sales, not how much the band made. Even then I know for almost certainty that Zeppelin earned more for their touring and their records.

More stats coming up.

EDIT: So, worldwide sales, we have LZ4 topping anything The Beatles did. But for all albums above 20 million, it is the only album listed. The Beatles have Sgt. Pepper's and Abbey Road, and if you count compilations, 1. Now, this is odd, because I was always under the impression that The White Album was their #1 selling album, but maybe this is a result of the RIAA counting double albums as double.

Looking at US sales (which is determined by the RIAA), yes, White Album is listed as the #1 Beatles album, and LZ4 is above. It is about even all the way down.

EDIT2: Looking at the wikipedia page for best-selling music artists, The Beatles are listed at a minimum of 244 million, and Zeppelin is estimated at 200 million. I think that says it right there. EMI claimed in the 80's that The Beatles sold a billion. Whether that is true or not (I doubt it) its still a testament.
 
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