Acoustic guitar and singing: to use a metronome?

[RAMI]

But I prefer to hear what good musicians do naturally.

I do too. But I don't believe playing to a click is "un-natural". No more un-natural than a guitar player playing to a drummer. Why doesn't everyone in the whole band just play at the tempo they want, speed up and slow down when they feel like it, and then say that they're just being natural? Playing to a click is only un-natural to someone who doesn't practice enough with one. I play live without a click and I play in the studio with a click. They're both totally natural to me.

How many bands can you claim SOUND better live than in the studio???? Take away the "colored lights" and close your eyes, and you'd have trouble naming 5.

 

[GOYA]

I do too. But I don't believe playing to a click is "un-natural". No more un-natural than a guitar player playing to a drummer.

I don't believe that playing tied to a machine is natural but the interplay of two people with ears and feelings is natural. It can't be any simpler than that. A human is natural and a machine is not.

Why doesn't everyone in the whole band just play at the tempo they want, speed up and slow down when they feel like it, and then say that they're just being natural?

Many do. Those that don't do so because they are convinced they need a click. (in the case of a drummer that has speed-up disease, maybe they really do need one)

Playing to a click is only un-natural to someone who doesn't practice enough with one. I play live without a click and I play in the studio with a click. They're both totally natural to me.

I didn't say that playing to a click is unnatural. I said that music done that way sounds unnatural. If someone hears a beat, the natural thing to do is to play to it. But if the beat itself is mechanical, the result will sound mechanical.

How many bands can you claim SOUND better live than in the studio???? Take away the "colored lights" and close your eyes, and you'd have trouble naming 5.

NOW you are talking apples and oranges. If a live performance had the magical ability to predetermine the best possible sound processing and to fix any possible mistakes, then I'd take the live performance every time. So rather than naming 5, I'll just name 2 that didn't use click tracks at all:

The Beatles
Led Zeppelin

We disagree, You use one and I won't.

 

[RAMI]

I don't believe that playing tied to a machine is natural but the interplay of two people with ears and feelings is natural. It can't be any simpler than that. A human is natural and a machine is not.

But, by your limited definition of what's natural or not, playing to a drummer that determines the "feel" and tempo would be considered un-natural because it doesn't allow the guitar player (or bass player or whatever) to play to his own feel, which is ludicrous. Playing to a click doesn't hold someone who's used to doing it from playing with feel.

I didn't say that playing to a click is unnatural. I said that music done that way sounds unnatural.

Really??? You're saying that ALL music done to a click sounds un-natural???? Besides the fact that that statement is a huge contradiction.

If someone hears a beat, the natural thing to do is to play to it. But if the beat itself is mechanical, the result will sound mechanical.

Again, really??? You're saying ALL music that's done to a click sounds un-natural??? Wow! You must not listen to a lot of music then.

So rather than naming 5, I'll just name 2 that didn't use click tracks at all:

The Beatles
Led Zeppelin

I knew you couldn't name 5. Why is that??? I agree that these are 2 great bands, 2 of my favorites, actually. But I'm not the one claiming that anyone that doesn't use a click doesn't sound good. You're the one that's making a blanket statement claiming that playing to a click ALWAYS sounds mechanical and takes the feel out of any music being played that way. If you were speaking for yourself, that would be fine. But to project your inability to do something and claim that nobody else can do it either is another story.

We disagree, You use one and I won't.

That's fine and that's what it comes down to. A lot better than saying "I can't do it naturally, so neither can anyone else".

 

[heatmiser]

How many bands can you claim SOUND better live than in the studio???? Take away the "colored lights" and close your eyes, and you'd have trouble naming 5.

Not taking sides here or anything, but I was struck by this question. Almost every band I like sounds better live to my ears...never cared for big stage productions...lights, gyrations, etc. 5 examples:

Grateful Dead
Allman Brothers
Jimi Hendrix Experience
Talking Heads
Primus

Playing with a metronome is of course more mechanical than playing along with an actual person on drums - whether it is natural or not is kind of an odd question though. I would always rather play with a drummer, but sadly not an option right now. I can play to a click fine and in fact find it quite a bit easier than without one, which makes it feel a bit like cheating.

 

[RAMI]

Not taking sides here or anything, but I was struck by this question. Almost every band I like sounds better live to my ears...never cared for big stage productions...lights, gyrations, etc. 5 examples:

Grateful Dead
Allman Brothers
Jimi Hendrix Experience
Talking Heads
Primus

Playing with a metronome is of course more mechanical than playing along with an actual person on drums - whether it is natural or not is kind of an odd question though. I would always rather play with a drummer, but sadly not an option right now. I can play to a click fine and in fact find it quite a bit easier than without one, which makes it feel a bit like cheating.

That's cool. This is what internet forum is all about.

Just to respond to your list of favorite live bands. One of my all-time favorite artists is Hendrix. But, I have to say that, while I've heard some great live Jimi, I've also heard some horrible live Jimi. But, either way, I don't think it's relevent to the "click track" debate, because I admit that a click track wouldn't improve the live performances. In fact, I can't even imagine Mitch Mitchell playing to a click. I think Jimi's performances depended more on the acid that day than on a "click track".

But, when you say that you'd rather play to a drummer than a click track, of course I agree. My argument isn't about playing to a real drummer as opposed to a machine. All I'm saying is that a good drummer who is used to practicing with a metronome and has experience playing to a click will have as much "feel" and groove as a drummer NOT playing to a click. It's not a hinderence to someone who has good meter to begin with.

 

[heatmiser]

That's cool. This is what internet forum is all about.

Just to respond to your list of favorite live bands. One of my all-time favorite artists is Hendrix. But, I have to say that, while I've heard some great live Jimi, I've also heard some horrible live Jimi. But, either way, I don't think it's relevent to the "click track" debate, because I admit that a click track wouldn't improve the live performances. In fact, I can't even imagine Mitch Mitchell playing to a click. I think Jimi's performances depended more on the acid that day than on a "click track".

But, when you say that you'd rather play to a drummer than a click track, of course I agree. My argument isn't about playing to a real drummer as opposed to a machine. All I'm saying is that a good drummer who is used to practicing with a metronome and has experience playing to a click will have as much "feel" and groove as a drummer NOT playing to a click. It's not a hinderence to someone who has good meter to begin with.

Ha, I was just heading back to this thread to try to sub Cream for Hendix, 'cause I too have heard the Experience derail from time to time...not to mention the Dead .

So, sounds like you're saying a click can be a useful guide and not hinder spontaneity providing the player has great innate rhythm.

Assuming it is just a singer / songwriter kind of thing though, I am open to the possibility that someone with great timing who might be fully capable of playing along with a click might in some cases, on certain songs, actually benefit from the freedom of its absence.

I agree with you that there are probably those who don't play with a click because they can't, I just wonder if there aren't also those who can but chose not to.

 

[RAMI]

I just wonder if there aren't also those who can but chose not to.

I'm sure there are. I'm not advocating the use of a click 100% of the time. If I was to cover a Who tune, for example, I might consider not using a click.

My beef is someone saying that a click is "devil" 100% of the time and claiming that it ALWAYS takes away feel and spontaniety. That's just false.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

How I decide when I'm producing:

*If the band sounds better live with a click in the drummer's ear, they go on a click.

*If the band sounds better live without a click in the drummer's ear, they go without a click.


UNLESS

They are not good enough to track without a large number of edits. If I predict an edit-storm, they go on a click.

UNLESS

The drummer just absolutly can't handle a click. Then I go without a click and weather the edit-storm as best I can.


IF the band is Samply McSamplerson and the Samples, then they go on a click.



So...
It depends.