Group Buy Interest?

[mshilarious]

Isn't the shipping company a government run program for the handicapped? I thought I read this somewhere. No cost (or at least that was my impression, please correct me if I'm wrong).

I think the first sentence is correct, not sure about the rest. They'd have to charge something, otherwise I imagine they would be rather busy . . .

 

[drBill]

What's your problem Doc........isn't a person allowed to have an opinion different to yours?

And BTW, can you please prove this.......".......yes, Chance and his tech designed the pre's........"

Of course everyone's allowed their opinion. How about putting it out in PUBLIC instead of private PM's. The inuendo created by not publicly stating your opinion, but instead saying "please check your PM's" is laughable.

There is no proof on this planet that will convince you.

 

[mshilarious]

There is no proof on this planet that will convince you.

A schematic without Chinese characters would be a good start . . .

 

[drBill]

I have a question that others may be asking -- if there is to be some remedial action taken by TnC or the Chinese (whether you call it warranty or not), should we hold off on modifying our units until we know where we stand?

I've got a whole bunch of BC441 and BC461 transistors, and I'm itching to put them into my 81s, but one of the 81s has a screw missing on an inductor and, strangely, rust on the inside of the top case plate over the XLR connector area. Not sure what happened here, but if there are issues would be addressed remedially, I'd hate to mess that up by going nuts with my soldering iron.

I do my best to keep up with the different forums (fora?), but I haven't seen anything on this issue - anyone know anything?

(also, I should say that I'm happy with what I got - and planned to mod them the whole time - just want to do things correctly. All 9 of my mics are in perfect working order, good ribbon tension, etc., BTW)

AC - not speaking officially (obviously), just stating my opinion:

If you want them fixed anytime soon, I'd pick up your soldering iron and go to it! Sounds like you have the parts and know-how at hand. If you want them replaced or fixed under warranty, I'd be on the phone or emailing chance and NOT picking up a soldering iron.

 

[noisedude]

I think Alan knew a lot about these and seemed to speak knowledgeably about the design.

It was openly stated that these were designed by Chance and his Neve guy and I totally believe that. The fact is that these are VERY close to the Neve design.

What would make sense here is that both are right. Which is my take. I bet that the 797 most likely already had a work in progress that they showed to Alan Hyatt(who promptly passed). Then Chance's design showed up and 797 figured they could pump these out with little to no variation and everyone's happy. The Neve design isn't the best kept secret in the world and given their "top of the heap" status, it'd be no surprise that someone had been working on the budget iteration of that circuit.

I think that Alan saw an issue with the circuit(probably with the power supply) and decided that the risks were too much. As has been stated before, terrible QC is a KILLER when your margins are paper thin. He came in with some not-so-subtle bluster and was run out of town on a mule, but I bet he was right.

And I bet that Chance was right. They put in for a design that was most likely 90% of the way there.

I think 797 were the ones at fault here. It seems like they played dumb and made it sound like this was being designed for Chance and most likely "forgot" about the issues that were identified by others. This points to more fault than just shoddy QC, but actual fraud. They knowingly manufactured a design that worked but with huge flaws knowing how hard it would be to follow through on warrantee requests. Throw in really crappy QC on top of it and you have the current version of the ACMP.

Again, they are fixable and some have found situations where they are totally useable if not great. Others haven't been so lucky. Mine seem to be relatively quiet and there are no variations from one unit to the other. I count myself lucky.

Anyway, that's my theory.

797 haven't been fraudelent, they've been extremely clear as far as I can tell on who designed this stuff. The bloke from 797 said as much himself.

I believe I am right in saying it was a design 797 had knocking about which was passed to PMI (who I would guess are probably 797's biggest customer) and it was then worked on by their chap in the UK, the same bloke who did the new Joemeek stuff. Long story short, they couldn't make anything they were happy with from it and passed it all back to 797. 797 then seem to have offered this as an OEM product which a reseller (your group buy chap) put some Neve-ish model numbers to and tweaked the cosmetics of.

None of that makes any difference to the fact that you all bought gear off a guy who hadn't checked what he was buying, which is a risk in any group buy. You win some, you lose some. But if you are kidding yourself into believing these are all getting fixed under some sort of warranty, I would gently encourage you to adjust your expectations rather than be disappointed. Sorry folks.

 

[noisedude]

So I guess the big question is whether or not the manufacturer already had this Neve clone preamp designed. And if so, was it the one that PMI passed on. I don't really care one way or the other...although I bet Chance and his tech would be a little pissed if they did all the research and work on mapping out his console's preamps, only to have China give them an already existing design with major QC flaws. And rightly so.

The question isn't who had rights and who designed the preamps that people bought .... if the TnC firm had designed them then they would have known they had fundamental flaws. PMI looked at it, fixed the EQ problems etc that 797 were stuck with, but decided against having it made. That means 797 go see if anyone else wants to use the design.

The reasons why 'Chance and his tech' could not been the designers of the unit have been discussed at length in this thread (no bill of materials, no schematics, no experience of testing it), so the only question that does remain is this:

Are you happy with what you got for what you paid?

 

[markitzero]

Are you happy with what you got for what you paid?

Yes. Very.

Others seem not to be. And given the circumstances, I can understand why.

However, I think perhaps there should not have been any sort of implied or written warranty. Maybe Chance should have said "purchase at your own risk". Then maybe those with high expectations and the inability to deal with money loss wouldn't have participated and therefore would not be disappointed.

I will say there does seem to be some holes in the information given to us, prior to the orders even taking place. Deception? Maybe, maybe not. I don't really care. The bottom line is that everyone knew what the deal was. This has been said over and over, and no one seems to acknowledge it. All I'm reading is post after post of "Yea, I knew it was a gamble, but this is bullshit". Please.

If anyone out there thinks that Chance is doing this for some kind of personal gain (future or present), what do you think will happen to TnC now that the cat is out of the bag? Will people spend real retail dollars on these pres (even if the problems are fixed) given the history and controversy?

Everyone needs to lighten up a little, I think. Do a J and chill out.

 

[vicenzajay]

Hmmm....

maybe I'm lucky - I spent the morning of my last full day of leave actually plugging in the two 73's and two 81's for about 4 hours and then doing quick test runs of my voice through a MXL 67g, ACM3, and K58 microphone. I crosschecked each test (of each microphone) through the preamp in question, a SCA N-72, and a FF800 imbedded preamp. I created a track in Reaper and set levels to match and then tested each preamp both without and with EQ engaged.

So far <he states gingerly> so good. No real difference noted on noise floor between all preamps tested. Perhaps a (very, very) slight increase in noise floor with both 81's EQ's engaged. Perhaps - I didn't take the time to really set up an in-depth test as family time is a little more important right now. Really I couldn't tell a perceptible difference at all.

The pop in the gain knob structure is present on all the units. The sound is quite good, actually - plenty of gain for the ribbons as well.

I didn't notice any quirks in phase switching - but that would actually take more testing to be certain of as well.

I especially liked the 73's sound...and the EQ as well. Really easy to find usable EQ points and dial in a very nice pre-printed vocal EQ for tracking.

I'm obviously not going to be able to really wring out the 81 units like I'd like to given my intended use for those boxes. Since I'd like to use them as an analog reamp stage for the 2-buss complete with (presumably) a nice analog EQ module, the reported hiss is a HUGE issue for me. I'll continue to watch for the fixes, as I'd really like to keep these units if they can be easily adjusted to have a nice, imperceptibly low noise floor.

Just an update - carry on,
Jay

 

[noisedude]

Yes. Very.

Others seem not to be. And given the circumstances, I can understand why.

However, I think perhaps there should not have been any sort of implied or written warranty. Maybe Chance should have said "purchase at your own risk". Then maybe those with high expectations and the inability to deal with money loss wouldn't have participated and therefore would not be disappointed.

I will say there does seem to be some holes in the information given to us, prior to the orders even taking place. Deception? Maybe, maybe not. I don't really care. The bottom line is that everyone knew what the deal was. This has been said over and over, and no one seems to acknowledge it. All I'm reading is post after post of "Yea, I knew it was a gamble, but this is bullshit". Please.

If anyone out there thinks that Chance is doing this for some kind of personal gain (future or present), what do you think will happen to TnC now that the cat is out of the bag? Will people spend real retail dollars on these pres (even if the problems are fixed) given the history and controversy?

Everyone needs to lighten up a little, I think. Do a J and chill out.

I think you have it figured out about right on all of those points. A little more of this sort of realism instead of naivety would have changed the complexion of this whole thing.

 

[antichef]

That is not a useful lesson if you're responsible for putting food on the table . . .

Observe how the group buy relies upon people who are donating their time, yet gained their expertise working for paying clients. Therefore, the paying clients already know their services are necessary.

Yes - but what about Randy's software modified to place orders directly with factories (along with some good method of paying), hooked up to one or more companies that do nothing but receive, package and ship [anything made by factories], coupled with an online system for feedback/rating of the factories and shipping companies? (got the dream part down, now if I could only find my pipe).

 

[noisedude]

Yes - but what about Randy's software modified to place orders directly with factories (along with some good method of paying), hooked up to one or more companies that do nothing but receive, package and ship [anything made by factories], coupled with an online system for feedback/rating of the factories and shipping companies? (got the dream part down, now if I could only find my pipe).

Warranties, technical support, quick turnarounds, proper documentation, holding of spare parts, holding of stock that can be bought etc etc etc ........... someone has to get paid to do all of that. Where does it fit into your model?

And any factory will only take orders to manufacture in quantity, like industrial containers, the economy of scale you want does not exist in the market, which is why the handful of companies who operate in it have to advertise heavily and build trusted and respected brands.

 

[nuemes]

But if you are kidding yourself into believing these are all getting fixed under some sort of warranty, I would gently encourage you to adjust your expectations rather than be disappointed.

Consider this too, folks: if there were fixes covered by warrenty, to what degree would they be?

For example, which would be covered?:

The 81's that have severe buzz only? Or the units that add hum when the EQ is added (which would be many, many units)? Or the units that have a pop at the detent (which would be every sinlge unit)?

And who is to decide what constitutes such a unit? Chance? 797? You? What might be an acceptable flaw to me might not be to you, or to the factory where they were built.

And then you'd be sending the unit off at your own shipping expense (both ways) and get it back (insert variable number less then probably 7) months later from China.

I can't imagine for a moment that the factory is going to accept the return of any of these and fix them for zip.

But you never know. Maybe TnC has Mary Poppin's phone number.

Anywho, still waiting on the replacement ribbons that were promised from the last group buy

 

[antichef]

Warranties, technical support, quick turnarounds, proper documentation, holding of spare parts, holding of stock that can be bought etc etc etc ........... someone has to get paid to do all of that. Where does it fit into your model?

it doesn't - and that's a feature, not a bug. To go back to the earlier analogy, each group buyer is his/her own retailer - the model essentially offers the consumer the option to not purchase all that stuff, and that's why the price is lower.

And any factory will only take orders to manufacture in quantity, like industrial containers, the economy of scale you want does not exist in the market, which is why the handful of companies who operate in it have to advertise heavily and build trusted and respected brands.

True enough - would only work where the collective group buy was big enough to tip the scale.

 

[mshilarious]

Yes - but what about Randy's software modified to place orders directly with factories (along with some good method of paying), hooked up to one or more companies that do nothing but receive, package and ship [anything made by factories], coupled with an online system for feedback/rating of the factories and shipping companies? (got the dream part down, now if I could only find my pipe).

Randy's software is nice but ordinary. Compare it with what Amazon does with its partners, for example. Every commercial shopping cart provider already offers what Randy did.

On the other side, do factories really want to deal with end-user customers? That goes to the points that noisedude made. The model used to be that factories could push product out to retailers. After the great Wal-Martization of retail, that is no longer true; now the large retailers (GC, MF, etc.) have the leverage and have pushed the inventory back to the manufacturers.

Thus, manufacturers have incentive to do direct sales, the question is do they really have the desire? I don't think the Chinese are really set up at all to deal with customer issues. They are operating on a 1960s-era model of production management, from what I can glean.

So it's very questionable whether any such model will work for Chinese goods. US, Euro zone, etc., manufacturers already have the technical sophistication to do that if they want to. Most of them don't.

 

[antichef]

Randy's software is nice but ordinary. Compare it with what Amazon does with its partners, for example. Every commercial shopping cart provider already offers what Randy did.

Randy's [excellent - go Randy!] software is here for illustrative purposes -- certainly the actual software could include an evolution of currently existing features (to the extent they're not protected by patents, etc.)

Thus, manufacturers have incentive to do direct sales, the question is do they really have the desire? I don't think the Chinese are really set up at all to deal with customer issues. They are operating on a 1960s-era model of production management, from what I can glean.

I guess my main dreamy point is that there could be no consumer issues, or at least not of the type/magnitude that come to mind. The participants would need to grasp the fact that they're acting as their own retailers.

So it's very questionable whether any such model will work for Chinese goods.

- hey, or any goods, for that matter -- this is a pipe dream, remember?

 

[mshilarious]

it doesn't - and that's a feature, not a bug. To go back to the earlier analogy, each group buyer is his/her own retailer - the model essentially offers the consumer the option to not purchase all that stuff, and that's why the price is lower.

It's a small subset of people that are willing to accept the conditions of the group buy. I mean, I do custom work in two weeks or less, standard products in one week. I get more than a few emails from Euro customers wondering why shipping takes longer than a week (usually because of customs). The idea that most customers as a matter of course will accept seven-month lag times seems unlikely to me.

I mean, the risk at some level becomes unacceptable. Everybody trusts Chance. Do you trust every other company in the world to the same degree? What happens when four months after payment, and two weeks before shipment, the company goes bankrupt? Answer: the entire group buy is an unsecured creditor, and the period for contesting the credit card charge has passed . . .

 

[antichef]

It's a small subset of people that are willing to accept the conditions of the group buy.

undoubtedly true, I'm projecting a bit.

I mean, the risk at some level becomes unacceptable. Everybody trusts Chance. Do you trust every other company in the world to the same degree? What happens when four months after payment, and two weeks before shipment, the company goes bankrupt? Answer: the entire group buy is an unsecured creditor, and the period for contesting the credit card charge has passed . . .

this would go back to the "(along with some good method of paying)" that I glossed over - letters of credit on banks, escrow, etc., to the point where it was manageable - this could either be a service offered by the shipping company (many of the same issues here) or by some financial institution (here too, apparently ), but I suspect the risk could be narrowed to something insurable.

 

[mshilarious]

this would go back to the "(along with some good method of paying)" that I glossed over - letters of credit on banks, escrow, etc., to the point where it was manageable - this could either be a service offered by the shipping company (many of the same issues here) or by some financial institution (here too, apparently ), but I suspect the risk could be narrowed to something insurable.

Sure, but everything costs money. If a credit card fee is ~2% with delivery expected within a month, how much does a guarantee cost for a six month lag time? If you use escrow, you have an escrow fee on top of the transaction fee. Who gets the interest on the escrow? Even if it's the manufacturer, while they don't have access to the escrow funds, they still need to borrow their production costs.

That's what they do already, but you are seeking similar terms to what you got in the group buy. That involved upfront payment, which really means that the cost of the units was $175 + interest.

Again, you have to convince the manufacturers that this is a good idea. They already have access to tools to accomplish this, if that is what they wanted to do.

 

[nuemes]

"Yea, I knew it was a gamble, but this is bullshit". Please.

Well, call me crazy, but I personally have an issue with the lack of transparency that came to light after I paid for my pre's.

Please find room in your heart for those of us who wanted to know what they were buying and are interested in getting to the bottom of it.

Think of it as an adventure rather than an annoyance

 

[noisedude]

it doesn't - and that's a feature, not a bug. To go back to the earlier analogy, each group buyer is his/her own retailer - the model essentially offers the consumer the option to not purchase all that stuff, and that's why the price is lower.

True enough - would only work where the collective group buy was big enough to tip the scale.

So you're advocating a model where hundreds or thousands of strangers club together anonymously to make one order from a factory who knows they have neither the buying power nor the unanimity to do anything more than take a gamble on whether the equipment they purchase will work or not?

And no-one will be facilitating it properly, because the prices per container will come direct from the factory and the masses and/or their ecommerce software will divvy the kit up amongst themselves when it arrives?

Have you ever unloaded a container? Who is going to house those pallets of stuff, break them up and individually ship them?

Nobody would ever do all of that without getting paid, and that includes the group buys that have already happened.

I don't think the model works, we demand better for our money and equipment is hardly expensive nowadays. In fact, if I was in a bad mood I might suggest that the pipe in question is not a 'dream' one but something else .... Good luck with it though, if you choose to try and make it happen.