kojdogg
bollocks redux!
anyone using this setup? how much "whammy" action can you get without throwing your guitar way out of tune? i know it won't compare to a locking trem, but how close does it get?
Zaphod B
Raccoons-Be-Gone, Inc.
My '91 Strat has locking tuners, a LSR rolling nut, and a standard floating Strat vibrato equipped with a Hipshot Tremsetter.
It works pretty well. Small to medium deflections in the whammy bar leave the guitar in tune. Full divebombs can throw things off a bit.
It works pretty well. Small to medium deflections in the whammy bar leave the guitar in tune. Full divebombs can throw things off a bit.
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ermghoti
New member
Here's a trick: when tuning up, after getting everything in, dive, and then pull the bar back as sharp as it will go. Obviously, you'll need to be set up to float. You will find that the strings will have gone varying degrees of out of tune. Take note of how much, and which way they are out, then tune down, and back up, to a note equally out of tune, the opposite way.
For example, if pulling the bar back results in the D string settling down 0.1 step sharp, tune the D string 0.1 step flat. Afterwards, pull the bar sharp again, and repeat until it's in after a pull. Do each string.
Now, the guitar is tuned in equilibrium with a full tug on the bar. When it goes out from wobbling or finger bends, a quick yank will retune the whole thing. This works on non-mocking tuners as well, but it take a lot more work. I broke two bars on my Strat, basically one a year, until I put the locking tuners on. No more breakage.
For example, if pulling the bar back results in the D string settling down 0.1 step sharp, tune the D string 0.1 step flat. Afterwards, pull the bar sharp again, and repeat until it's in after a pull. Do each string.
Now, the guitar is tuned in equilibrium with a full tug on the bar. When it goes out from wobbling or finger bends, a quick yank will retune the whole thing. This works on non-mocking tuners as well, but it take a lot more work. I broke two bars on my Strat, basically one a year, until I put the locking tuners on. No more breakage.
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stevieb
Just another guy, really.
Just looked at all three guitars I have with whammy (A Schaller, a Flloyd Rose, and a loose Bigsby copy) and I can not imagine what you mean by a "non-locking trem." To my eyes, a "locking trem," is a contradiction of terms- if the strings were locked at the bridge, you would have ZERO whammy movement. On the Rose, the trem and bridge move as a unit, whereas on the Schaller and Bigsby copy, the trem does move the strings over the bridge saddles. Which one (if either) is a "locking trem??"
And I don't EVEN want to know about ermghoti's "non-mocking" tuners...
And I don't EVEN want to know about ermghoti's "non-mocking" tuners...
Zaphod B
Raccoons-Be-Gone, Inc.
Maybe he means a half-blocked vibrato rather than a full-floating one.
Zaphod B
Raccoons-Be-Gone, Inc.
I have a half-blocked Wilkinson vibrato on my Xaviere Strat-Like-Guitar (XV-850?). You can't pull notes sharp with it; you can only go flat. With no locking tuners and a standard nut, it's pretty stable, too, unless you divebomb it. Even then, coming back from a whammy-bar-flat-on-the-body dive, it's not too bad.
I think for the best stability in a vibrato system you need a locking nut and a half-blocked vibrato, just to eliminate as many things as possible that can move around and / or bind. Also, a half-blocked vibrato should be immune to things going to hell in a handbasket when you break a string.
Just my opinion, mind ya.
I think for the best stability in a vibrato system you need a locking nut and a half-blocked vibrato, just to eliminate as many things as possible that can move around and / or bind. Also, a half-blocked vibrato should be immune to things going to hell in a handbasket when you break a string.
Just my opinion, mind ya.
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ermghoti
New member
A Floyd Rose is a locking trem. The string ends are clamped (locked) into place, and can not shift at all, regardless of what gymnastics are applied to the bar. a typical Fender trem is non-locking. The string ends are held in position by the tension of the tuned string. If detuned slack with a dive, they will wander around a bit, and may or may not return to the exact same position. I don't find it a big problem, but I also haven't encountered a non-locking trem with the range of a Floyd type.
Don't make me sic my mocking tuners on you.
Don't make me sic my mocking tuners on you.
slowmotion
New member
Further to that: there are double and single locking trems.
Usually, double lockers are as the original floyd rose is, where you cut off the string ball, clamp in the string end at the bridge (locking it in), then at the nut, there is another string clamp which locks it again. Double locks!
Single locking trems are usually cheaper copies of floyds, they will still have the locking nut, but you don't have to clip off the ball ends at the bridge (they load in the back of the saddles). So really it's only "locked" at the nut.
A strat type trem, as mentioned, is non locking.
I actually use a licensed floyd which keeps the ball ends, but instead of a locking nut, I use a graphtec nut which works fine. With standard type tuners (gotohs). IF you string your strings properly (using the one wind over and two/three winds under method) and stretch them out, you shouldn't go too badly out of tune. Unless you are in Dragonforce hahaha.
But to the OP: yes, it will work, but replace your nut with something slippery (like graphite) so when you're pulling/pushing on the whammy, your strings don't bind in the nut. You can even get roller nuts if you like! Obviously depends on how crazy you wanna get though. If you want Van Halen dives, you pretty much NEED an original floyd rose (Ibanez high end ones are good too).
Madguitrst
Member
In can work just fine if you take the time to set it up well: stretch your strings until they are stable, make sure the strings are not sticking on the nut, etc.
Usually it will be more stable if the trem comes back to a fixed point, say the body, like the typical Fender. That doesn't mean it can't float, just that you may have to take more care to set it up and might have some restrictions on how wildly you can use it.
That said, I have two Charvels that are like Super Strats: Four single coil slots (two single coil bridge pickups), floating trem (their own), roller-like nut, and non-locking tuners that are hight compensated. Guess what? With a little care, such as number of winding on the tuner post for each string (3 or so) with NO overlapping of the strings, they stay in tune just fine with moderate usage......much better than I anticipated.
With locking tuners, don't wind around the post more than once, if that even.
You'll have to decide how you want the trem, ie: tight to the body or floating.
Sheesh, back before I had any Floyds or locking anything.....just the typical strat bridge, I had to work pretty hard but I could get the guitar to stay in tune pretty darn well with moderate+ whammying.
Usually it will be more stable if the trem comes back to a fixed point, say the body, like the typical Fender. That doesn't mean it can't float, just that you may have to take more care to set it up and might have some restrictions on how wildly you can use it.
That said, I have two Charvels that are like Super Strats: Four single coil slots (two single coil bridge pickups), floating trem (their own), roller-like nut, and non-locking tuners that are hight compensated. Guess what? With a little care, such as number of winding on the tuner post for each string (3 or so) with NO overlapping of the strings, they stay in tune just fine with moderate usage......much better than I anticipated.
With locking tuners, don't wind around the post more than once, if that even.
You'll have to decide how you want the trem, ie: tight to the body or floating.
Sheesh, back before I had any Floyds or locking anything.....just the typical strat bridge, I had to work pretty hard but I could get the guitar to stay in tune pretty darn well with moderate+ whammying.
kojdogg
bollocks redux!
thanks dudes!
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dogonjon
New member
Mocking tuners
Ha! You call those tuners! I call them a poor excuse for not being able to tune on the fly. What use would Jimi have for mocking tuners, he tuned on the fly all the time and mostly just played out of tune and bent each note to pitch. I got your mocking tuners right here with yo momma's mocking tuners. Had enough yet or should I mock you further?
Ha! You call those tuners! I call them a poor excuse for not being able to tune on the fly. What use would Jimi have for mocking tuners, he tuned on the fly all the time and mostly just played out of tune and bent each note to pitch. I got your mocking tuners right here with yo momma's mocking tuners. Had enough yet or should I mock you further?
Light
New member
Locking tuners are better than non-locking tuners, but if your doing a lot of dive bombs and heavy trem yanking you really need to get a Floyd and a locking nut. That's the only thing that will consistently stay in tune with use that heavy. If you're just looking for some Ventures type dips, locking tuners with a properly cut nut will be a big help. Making sure the nut is cut right is a big part of that, though, and it's also a good thing to keep it lubricated with some pencil graphite. (I don't like most of the "string lube" products, because they are messier than pencil lead, don't work any better, and if they get on the wrong side of the nut they can dampen the open strings.) I use a fine lead mechanical pencil to deliver the graphite as precisely as possible.
Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
slowmotion
New member
Hendrix tuned on the fly because he used guitars which went out of tune with the abuse but were still pretty much top of the range at the time.
Hendrix would probably be playing Parker Fly guitars and modelling amps if he was alive today, he was using cutting edge stuff back then, why not now... yes with locking tuners and locking trems and still with a more open mind than yours.
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toobalicious
New member
hmm... i wont hypothesize about what mr hendrix might or might not have been using lately were he still alive and playing.
but there is nothing particularly cutting edge or high tech about a mid to late 60's straight off of the rack stratocaster with the strings on upside down.
FWIW.
slowmotion
New member
There was in the mid to late 60's - it was the best you could get with a trem that wasn't a bigsby. Not so much nowadays obviously.
mixmkr
we don't need rest!!
I put this on a Strat and I actually think it is better than the Floyd, because it is more adjustable at the bridge end. If you can get past the looks of the nut, this is the one to get. Plus.... if you want to remove it, that's still an option, and you can put back on the original stuff.
http://www.super-vee.com/index.html
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toobalicious
New member
gee, i dont know. by the time "are you experienced" was out, the strat was a teenager, and had already began the CBS slide, if you will, with such "innovation" as thick poly finishes, the 86-ing of the "slab" fingerboard, large headstock and "new" fender tuners (from the klusons), as well as the cutting edge "F" engraving on the neckplate and new curvy black decal..... hell, they even quit potting the pickups in wax. at least hendrix didnt make it for the cutting edge micro-tilt 3-bolt neck, the boat-anchor ash body, or the die-cast bridge. [/sarcasm]
back to the original topic, though, i will say that the "ultra" strat i had in the 90's with the roller nut and locking tuners stayed in tune quite well--- but unfortunately, the tuning stability couldnt make up for the "ultra" shittiness that exuded from the lace sensor pickups.
suprstar
It aint ez being green
I think it depends on the guitar. I had a couple cheap guitars, an Ibanez and a Kramer, that would totally go out tune when you wail on the whammy bar, even if just a little bit. I currently have 2 Jacksons that I can divebomb until the strings are hanging in a parabola, and when I let it go it comes back to perfect tune every time.
Zaphod B
Raccoons-Be-Gone, Inc.
You don't like the Lace Sensors?
I've got those in my '91 Strat Plus (the one I referred to in my post above) and I really like 'em, especially for clean and barely crunchy stuff. They're pretty low output, though.
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toobalicious
New member
nah, they didnt work for me. to be fair, when i acquired that guitar, i was looking for "strat" sounds; unfortunately for me, the ultra wasnt very strat-like. i am sure they have their place, and i did fairly enjoy the early EC sig with the triple golds (i never actually owned one of those though). the double-red bridge position was just awful, *especially* as a humbucker, and the neck blue (neck position is by far my favorite strat sound) just didnt cut it for me, as the sparkle-y character was mostly gone, but the mud and blattiness (yes, more silly "tone" adjectives) remained in spades. the middle gold was so weak in comparison to the other positions that it wasnt very useful to me, even though it was the most "strat-like" of them all. truly one of the least inspiring guitars i have ever owned.
like anything else, IMO, and YMMV.