Ok, seems like I've evoked a fair bit of thought/discussion here. Let me respond and/or clarify. Sorry if my grammar/spelling/structure/logic goes a bit off course, I'm kinda drunk and running in sleep deprivation mode at the moment. (And have now just realised this is becoming quite a rant...)
notsocoolguy said:
Have you done much live sound before?
That sounds like a horrible technique which, I'll admit, alot of newer people do, but it's quite bad form! And I say this with over 10 years experience in live sound...
Yes, I have. I've also spoken with many other engineers over my time doing it about various approaches... some of which have up to or more than triple your experience and mix/have mixed for bands bigger than most people are ever likely to even meet and/or now own companies providing production for events that reside in the upper spectrum of production, and this approach to gain structure seems quite common amongst many of them. It's not some fact I went and pulled from the latest Bullshit Audio 101 website like a lot of the advice that people around here seem to be given is.
To quote one referable source, just in case you really must have proof that I'm not just pulling this out of my own arse, here's a quote from Bruce Johnston from the current issue (issue 63, sept 2008) of Audio Technology.
"I do a lot of mixing by turning the gain knob rather than pushing faders, group masters or VCAs. I like to keep the channels at unity."
Bruce Johnston, for those who don't know, is the currnet FOH engineer for Oasis, who's been in this position for around 10 years, along with mixing many other big name bands (Crowded House, Mignight Oil, Silverchair, The Killers, Hoodoo Gurus, Paul Kelly - who I've also worked with, etc, anyone not heard of at least one?), who also happens to run quite a large production company (Johnston Audio) here in Australia that caters to many of the larger international touring acts. I'm sure it would be safe to assume that he does know a thing or two when it comes to gain structure seeing as most of his life and living is based around... yes, live sound installations/mixing.
Besides, you want to know one of the biggest 'secrets of the pros' is??? The thing that so many people scouring the forums/interwebs seem so intested in... There is no right or wrong way to do things. The most common implicit consensus amongst many 'pros' opinions is that they all work differently. Yes, they all have a regard for certain basic techincal limitations, but they all do things differently. One guy says sweep your EQ, another guy says never sweep your EQ. One guy says control your levels by compressing this way pre-fader then compressing another way post fader, another guy says only compress for feel/groove only. Many of the 'pros' recognise that their methods are their methods... not necessarily the correct methods, but methods which ultimately result in desirable outcomes for their line of work.
Ultimately, there is no right or wrong way to do things. Personally, I say aspire to achieve an inspired mix over a technically perfect mix. The average listener (someone listening to the music but not critiquing the production) will generally feel more connected with the inspired mix than the technically perfect mix. Yes, production quality and aesthetics have an impact on how the listener will perceive the piece, but assuming production is up to standard, an inspired mix will only serve to draw the listner in more, even if there is 6dB more noise in it than the technically perfect version.
notsocoolguy said:
A basic line test should be able to be done in under 10 minutes easy
I do realise this...
born said:
Consider that the poor sound guy has to set up mic gain, insert settings (comps/gates/anything else that may be patched in), insert return levels, aux levels, rough eq, etc, for all instruments in a matter of minutes.
notsocoolguy said:
This boosts the voltage up to a decent level to be able to drive the EQ, AUX sends, Direct outs, whatever LINE LEVEL devices which may come after the preamp which are expecting LINE LEVEL... If your not boosting the mic signal up to LINE LEVEL, everything else after in your signal chain will suffer...
Ok, here's a run down of gain structuring and what not as I see it.
Devices, that are generally patched into the direct signal path, whether they be EQ's, compressors, gates, aux sends, or whatever, are essentially the same as your mic/line amp that resides at the front of your channel strip. How are they the same??? They are all ther to provide gain or trim/attenuation. EQ's are frequency selective gain/attenuation controls (well, slightly more complex than that, but still similar in concept)... compressors and gates are essentially VCA's with the ability to control themselves dependant on programme... aux sends are just buffers that allow you to split the signal several ways and gain/attenuate it to feed different outputs... they are essentially all just gain controls that boost/attenuate voltage. They don't discriminate because something's not at line level... 3dB boost on your eq will boost that frequncy 3dB relative to it's original level whether the signal's at line level or below it. Yes, each element has a certain noise floor, which will determine it's dynamic range, and a certain amount of head room, which will partly determine distortion... from these we achieve optimum operating level - the level at which these elements are minimised whilst still leaving sufficient headroom. When working in the studio it's good practise to work at that level as we're striving towards an outcome which will potentially be listened to in quiet environments on 'hi-fi' equipment where noise and other undesirable elements are much more apparent. In a live sound situation, we can afford to reasonably slip below optimum as whilst our ultimate aim is still to provide the best quality mix we can, there are other more severe elements interfering with our mix than the already low noise floor we achieve with modern equipment. Crowd noise alone will almost certainly outweigh the extra couple of dB or so of noise you create by running a few of your channels below optimum level. Saying all this, I do realise there's a point where you can slip too low... I don't have that much neglect.
Admitedly, my opinion is biased as I come from a background of mixing what can be losely defined as rock/pop groups where, conveniently, most of the elements tend to sit at appropriate levels in the mix when at roughly equal levels. Sure, I'm not so stupid I'm about to go trimming the gain down so far that I have a signal coming into the console from the preamp at -40dBu while leaving my fader up at unity. I am more inclined, though, to balance the gain trim and faders, to get the channel fader up a bit higher than -40dB down where, really, it feels a little useless. Faders are for mixing, yes... they're great because they give you something to grab, something to feel, something to ride (this is starting to sound wrong), something that lets you easily and creatively manipulate several elements at once in a meaningful way... you know... they're there for the feel thing. Functionally, they're exactly the same thing as your aux sends, practically they're much more fun. For me, and many others, having your faders at or close to unity is great for this. They just feel better there. To quote a quite prolific (studio) engineer (Micahael Stavrou), they're at "their most useable and juicy position, enabling finer control."
notsocoolguy said:
Of course, these people are using desks with out mute buttons, so they have other issues!
Of course, it's not like I'm allowed to work with large format consoles that not only have mute buttons (which even basic mixers have), but mute groups, VCAs, the ability to recall scenes, etc... hmm...
Massive Master said:
They're not mixing using the gain trims, they're just setting up the mix with the faders at unity. Then they can do whatever they want and bounce back to where they were.
It's done a lot in live settings - Usually with the headliner's engineer. Then the opening act (who would be killed if they even look at the EQ) mixes on the faders (pre-gain be damned, but it's usually pretty close anyway) and the headliner's FOH guy can just bring it all to unity and go.
It may not be the ideal situation sonically, but it can certainly be the most efficient.
notsocoolguy said:
...then surely you could afford a piece of paper and a pen, and perhaps an assistant for a bit to help you sort out your mix in the change over!
Yes, indeed pens/paper come in handy. A basic Crib Sheet, presets, and/or your own memory is usually enough to get you through this.
As for jmorris, all I have to say as a professional working in this industry is that perhaps you've now learned from this experience and know better for next time. The harsh reality of it is similar to the last paragraph in my last post... yes, some peole are dicks. That's how this game (along with every other job) works - some people are just really hard to deal with... However, perhaps you've also failed for being unprepared and less assertive than you could have been, instead choosing to rely on another guy to do half your work for you. It is generally accepted that when recording a live event you run a splitter and your own console and/or preamps. It is not the FOH guys position to object to having mics up on stage if they're not running on his console. Yes, the promoter/venue/event manager/band reserves the right to object, however as long as you set up in such a way that you have no affect on the FOH guy there should be no problem with him. Next time perhaps just tell the FOH guy "Hey, I'm bringing a splitter and my own console, preamps and mics. I'll be setting up the splitter and console and any extra mics I need to record this event myself in such a way that it won't affect your job. This is what I've been employed to do, and this is what I need to do." If you have a problem, consult the promoter/event manager/venue who's employing you. If they really do want you to fulfill your job requirements they will usually be happy to assist you reasonably. Just don't step on anybodies toes and you should be fine 99% of the time.
I hope some of this has made sense... it's gotten kinda long.
Take care.