soundguys...ARG!

[jmorris]

Seeing that I do a fair share of live gigs I run into "soundguys" that end up making my like a lot harder than it needs to be. Now yesterday, I do a live gig in an outdoor festival. I'm thinking great, outdoors....nice. That was until soundguy...Chester as we'll call him got involved. Chester did not really want to mic anything unless he had to. I was tapping off his allen and heath board via direct outs. Should be cool as it will be clean signal, no eq. etc. For some reason he wanted no overheads for drums???? I felt had to REALLY beg for them. He mic'd the toms about 5 inches off head and pretty much off edge of shell pointed straight across head?? I mean, no 45 degree angle or anything, almost straight across.Snare,yeah that was in front of kit ,again off edge of rim pretty pointed straight across.Picking up hihat too much So, for drums I got lots of everything!! I mean bleed.Oh my god, where do these guys come from? Any of my suggestions for different mic choices or placement got vetoed. Oh yeah, not that this effected me but he had 7 or 8:1 compression ratio for kick....a tad much. I labored all day today to try to salvage the day, so far ok.Had to replace the snare as it sounded terrible even before his mic position and mic choice..dont even know what the hell mic it was?? Anyone ever run into this sort of thing. From now on I will make sure I have final say on this kind of thing. Mic selection, placement etc.......man what a day.

 

[Massive Master]

I know too many of them (like that).

One thing I can tell you - Sound guys don't like surprises - and they LOVE accurate input lists and stage plots.

If you're tracking live, I'd suggest bringing a splitter and a separate console or bank of preamps. At the very least, a detailed input list and a very, very clear section of the rider that mentions you will be pulling a signal off their console at the track level.

 

[Sloan]

Always do what the soundguy says. Don't argue.



If he's failing and doesn't realize it or doesn't respond to comments:
1. don't play after he sets everything up. Just leave.
2. beat the living shit out of his microphones.
3. bring his failings to the attention of his superiors.
4. do what your supposed to do as a performer and just perform the best you can.

 

[jmorris]

I know too many of them (like that).

One thing I can tell you - Sound guys don't like surprises - and they LOVE accurate input lists and stage plots.

If you're tracking live, I'd suggest bringing a splitter and a separate console or bank of preamps. At the very least, a detailed input list and a very, very clear section of the rider that mentions you will be pulling a signal off their console at the track level.

I, in most cases bring my own splitter,24 channel, and onyx board. Trouble is this guy had a specifis arrray of mic HE wanted to use and well as HIS mic placement. All of which were poor at best.

 

[mixsit]

I, in most cases bring my own splitter,24 channel, and onyx board. Trouble is this guy had a specifis arrray of mic HE wanted to use and well as HIS mic placement. All of which were poor at best.

Yep. Makes it tough to keep it positive after a few hits like that. Check Sloan. 23 -and well along.

4. do what your supposed to do as a performer and just perform the best you can.

But in the end, does the pro route though.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Let's Get Real Here

Man, you guys can be harsh. Messing with another man's microphone is like messing with one of his family, you just don't do it (unless it's a 57, in which case it's OK )

House sound guys have a reputation for being grumpy ol' ass holes, and, yeah, that reputation is often deserved. But I'll tell ya, you spend every weekend night until 3am with every drunken asshole in the bar telling you what to do (and that's just the band, wait until you hear the audience think they are all FOH engineers themselves about halfway through the second set) and jerks like us coming in thinking we own the place and want to in one night mess with the system they have worked out over months or years, you'd be pretty damn grumpy and defensive too.

First, when we go into their house, we are going into their house. They are not our employees, nor are they the band's employees; they work for the venue. They are the boss of their board and gear and rightly expect to be treated with the respect that deserves. Hell yeah they want input lists, gear lists, set lists and set scripts. Wouldn't you? We harp on this board all the time about how the band had better be truly prepared when they come into our studio; why shouldn't a pro FOH engineer expect the same from his clients?

Second, their job for the venue is to provide FOH for the venue. Nowhere in their description does it say anything about recording taking a priority over the live sound when it comes to mic or board setup. In fact it says nothing about accomodating recording whatsoever; they do so at their own pleasure and discretion (except under special circumstances, see below).

I can't believe what I'm reading when I hear you guys complaining that the FOH guy won't move his microphones into a different position for you or won't throw up extra mics that he normally would not use, just for you. Are you guys insane? If you want to use OHs to record, throw up a pair of your own; don't expect FOH to do it for you. And as far as the ones he already has up, he's going to do what he needs/wants to do to deliver live sound, and isn't going to change that just because someone is making a recording. He''l think, "you want to record, and you don't like the way I set up for live, then use you own gear and your own setup. I have my own cross to bear." And he'd be right.

Tapping off of FOH inserts is fine and is at the FOH guy's discretion. But to expect him to change what he has to do just because he doing you the favor of letting you piggyback of his board is just plain unreasonable. Get what you can off his board, but for the rest, bring you own gear - including you own board, your own mics and your own splitters. And stay out of his way. It's his stage, not yours.

The exception is if the band wishes to do a REAL live recording; i.e. one that's actually going out as a retail album. In which case the album producer should work things out before-hand with the venue management and with the engineers. I'm not talking about two hours before the show, I'm talking about a couple of weeks before-hand, where agreement is reached and a cooperative plan between engineers worked out long beofre show night.

G.

 

[jmorris]

Oh yeah, as I said he had an A&H board with direct out I tapped off. Not ideal, my splitter is better but....for the acoustic guitars I had almost NO signal. I look at his board at the channels the acoustics are on, the gain is at like 2 and fader almost all the way to top!!! I told him " hey, you need to raise the gain and bring the fader down,Im getting pretty much nothing". He responded " no, I cant, I'll get feedback" . Please..........

 

[jmorris]

Man, you guys can be harsh. Messing with another man's microphone is like messing with one of his family, you just don't do it (unless it's a 57, in which case it's OK )

House sound guys have a reputation for being grumpy ol' ass holes, and, yeah, that reputation is often deserved. But I'll tell ya, you spend every weekend night until 3am with every drunken asshole in the bar telling you what to do (and that's just the band, wait until you hear the audience think they are all FOH engineers themselves about halfway through the second set) and jerks like us coming in thinking we own the place and want to in one night mess with the system they have worked out over months or years, you'd be pretty damn grumpy and defensive too.

First, when we go into their house, we are going into their house. They are not our employees, nor are they the band's employees; they work for the venue. They are the boss of their board and gear and rightly expect to be treated with the respect that deserves. Hell yeah they want input lists, gear lists, set lists and set scripts. Wouldn't you? We harp on this board all the time about how the band had better be truly prepared when they come into our studio; why shouldn't a pro FOH engineer expect the same from his clients?

Second, their job for the venue is to provide FOH for the venue. Nowhere in their description does it say anything about recording taking a priority over the live sound when it comes to mic or board setup. In fact it says nothing about accomodating recording whatsoever; they do so at their own pleasure and discretion (except under special circumstances, see below).

I can't believe what I'm reading when I hear you guys complaining that the FOH guy won't move his microphones into a different position for you or won't throw up extra mics that he normally would not use, just for you. Are you guys insane? If you want to use OHs to record, throw up a pair of your own; don't expect FOH to do it for you. And as far as the ones he already has up, he's going to do what he needs/wants to do to deliver live sound, and isn't going to change that just because someone is making a recording. He''l think, "you want to record, and you don't like the way I set up for live, then use you own gear and your own setup. I have my own cross to bear." And he'd be right.

Tapping off of FOH inserts is fine and is at the FOH guy's discretion. But to expect him to change what he has to do just because he doing you the favor of letting you piggyback of his board is just plain unreasonable. Get what you can off his board, but for the rest, bring you own gear - including you own board, your own mics and your own splitters. And stay out of his way. It's his stage, not yours.

The exception is if the band wishes to do a REAL live recording; i.e. one that's actually going out as a retail album. In which case the album producer should work things out before-hand with the venue management and with the engineers. I'm not talking about two hours before the show, I'm talking about a couple of weeks before-hand, where agreement is reached and a cooperative plan between engineers worked out long beofre show night.

G.

Glen, for this I have to disagree. First , my bitch is when the FOH guy has no clue at all about sound let alone recording. In this case, I had emails back and forth from the sound guy expressing what I was to do and how I wanted to do it. I was employed by event chairman to record event.I should have explained that. But in any case. It does not hurt a FOH guy to have a bunch of extra mics up.....yes I offered all of my mic's, and I would place them,he had a reason for saying no to all....his reasons that made no logical sense at all.I told him, if you do want to use them keep the faders down but I need them.I mean when you cant even set up gain structure on a board..come on!I agree if you are just some putz walking into a club saying"hey Im going to record the band" well maybe your points ring true. But when this has been set up prior, emails sent/received and the knucklehead still has "his" own way of doing things come on...I mean, he wasnt really oppposed to me there, he just believed he had the best way to mic things. He told me the best recordings are just 2 mics up in the back of a room, xy.You never need multitrack...that will tell you.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Glen, for this I have to disagree. First , my bitch is when the FOH guy has no clue at all about sound let alone recording. In this case, I had emails back and forth from the sound guy expressing what I was to do and how I wanted to do it. I was employed by event chairman to record event.I should have explained that. But in any case. It does not hurt a FOH guy to have a bunch of extra mics up.....yes I offered all of my mic's, and I would place them,he had a reason for saying no to all....his reasons that made no logical sense at all.I told him, if you do want to use them keep the faders down but I need them.I mean when you cant even set up gain structure on a board..come on!I agree if you are just some putz walking into a club saying"hey Im going to record the band" well maybe your points ring true. But when this has been set up prior, emails sent/received and the knucklehead still has "his" own way of doing things come on...I mean, he wasnt really oppposed to me there, he just believed he had the best way to mic things. He told me the best recordings are just 2 mics up in the back of a room, xy.You never need multitrack...that will tell you.

You're right, your situation is more like the last paragraph; I did not realize that. I still don't see how that changes a whole lot other than reporting back to the powers that be afterwards any points agreed upon that the FOH guy did not comply with.

You're also right, there are a lot of FOH guys who suck. Just like there are recordiists and "mastering guys" who suck. No question about it. All the more reason not to rely upon them to do your job and to take care of your responsibilities yourself. I'm not picking on you specifically, I'm talking about anybody, including myself, going into such a situation.

Your example of the acoustics is a good one. Yet that could be simply avoided with a splitter to your own board instead of relying on his obvious stupidity regarding his own board.

Unless it's in a contract or otherwise specifically agreed upon beforehand in the e-mails (which is still really a form of contract), it's not his job to take care of your needs by setting up your mics for you. He needs to do FOH and you need to record, and the two have different needs. You set up your OHs; if he doesn't like it, he can go up on stage and try to tear 'em back down again; let's just see how far he gets.

I guess it simply comes down to: to have the success of your job depend upon someone else who has an entirely different job to do, and who may not even be able to do his own job right, is to simply beg for trouble.

G.

 

[steppingonmars]

Lessons learned

Sounds like you've got some lessons here you should have learned....

- write up a contract next time labelling specifics of what you expect and what the sound guy has to expect, then have your boss and the sound guy sign it, if things aren't right, don't complain to the soundman, complain to the guy who's gonna pay your bills and explain the issues with the soundman, he/she will listen a lot more through the guy who's paying him than you.



- How did it sound live? Did the soundman do a good job regardless of what it sounded like recorded? My priorities would be a good FOH sound and making sure the bands were happy ready to perform with a good stage sound and on schedule. If I were doing live sound and you came up want this or that mic placement, you'd be on the bottom of the list

- I have to agree with Glen on this one, just because I've done live sound before and played in bands live. There's a million things a soundman has to do with a million bosses, so you might be low on the list for him. Also you get treated like shit from everyone even if your good. It's hard NOT to be a dick doing that job. The band thinks they own you, the crowd thinks they own you, the guy who pays you owns you and now you're getting told the recording guy owns you and your equipment as well. So maybe next time write up a contract with specifics or bring your own mics and set it up yourself.

 

[Massive Master]

Oh yeah, as I said he had an A&H board with direct out I tapped off. Not ideal, my splitter is better but....for the acoustic guitars I had almost NO signal. I look at his board at the channels the acoustics are on, the gain is at like 2 and fader almost all the way to top!!! I told him " hey, you need to raise the gain and bring the fader down,Im getting pretty much nothing". He responded " no, I cant, I'll get feedback" . Please..........

Just another reason to bring a transformer-isolated splitter - And let the venue know it's coming.

 

[jmorris]

Sounds like you've got some lessons here you should have learned....

- write up a contract next time labelling specifics of what you expect and what the sound guy has to expect, then have your boss and the sound guy sign it, if things aren't right, don't complain to the soundman, complain to the guy who's gonna pay your bills and explain the issues with the soundman, he/she will listen a lot more through the guy who's paying him than you.



- How did it sound live? Did the soundman do a good job regardless of what it sounded like recorded? My priorities would be a good FOH sound and making sure the bands were happy ready to perform with a good stage sound and on schedule. If I were doing live sound and you came up want this or that mic placement, you'd be on the bottom of the list

- I have to agree with Glen on this one, just because I've done live sound before and played in bands live. There's a million things a soundman has to do with a million bosses, so you might be low on the list for him. Also you get treated like shit from everyone even if your good. It's hard NOT to be a dick doing that job. The band thinks they own you, the crowd thinks they own you, the guy who pays you owns you and now you're getting told the recording guy owns you and your equipment as well. So maybe next time write up a contract with specifics or bring your own mics and set it up yourself.

no lessons to be learned here other than most sound guys are idiots.I too have played in bands for years,lets see about 28 years. When a sound guy does not even know the basics of his console or the most basic way to mic a drum kit and is unwilling to alter, all is lost. Unwilling to alter because he believes he knows. Yeah....lets mic a floor tom straight across it and 6 inches from it in a live situation where now it will not only not get a nice ton from floor tom it will pickup everything. I have had sound guys tell me when I have questions their ways.."I'm trying to get some air", thats my favorite. We're not at Abbey Road my god! I understand all that has been stated. Not to be grumpy but my frustration is working with people that dont have a clue....and that are getting paid to have a clue. Yes, I DO have a whirlwind splitter snake, and yes I DO have a separate console. Both would not helped me much if soundguy is not willing to let me at least properly set up drum 's and/or add to the kit. None of which would effect him. You dont want overheads? then pull the freakin fader down! You dont want a mic on the acoustic guitar because you fell the d/i box is good enought, pull the freakin fader down. The bands I have worked with have always been very good and more than willing to let me do what I think is best.Hey, they benifit in the end and they know that. Oh, and as far as the bottom of the list as far as mic placement. I understand what you are saying but understand, there is a way to mic a kit and a way NOT to. It's not like I was asking for something strange or something like hey I want 18 mics on this 4 piece kit.I just trying to get the basic mic's in place,standard type mic's for drums, placed in the standard way anyone that has does this for a while would do.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Not to be grumpy but my frustration is working with people that dont have a clue....and that are getting paid to have a clue.

On that we are in complete agreement . And don't think that I don't feel for you, either; I understand completely from where you're coming.

My own (least or most?) favorite horror story was where I had to record the headliner band on a double-bill. The sound guy seemed fairly competent, and was - compared to the average - fairly cooperative. We spent a good 40 minutes or so doing a combo sound check/recording setup and got things all ready to go. I had my own board and some of my own mics set up, but I was also taking some directs off of his board as well, and we got things pretty well dialed in.

It was another hour before the gig started, with the warmup band coming first. It was a nice night out and everything was just ducky, so I stepped outside for a few minutes for a smoke break.

I come back in to find that - after being assured otherwise - the warmup band had taken all the gear: mics, amps, drum kit, everything and moved them offstage to make room for their own, lesser gear. It's not like there wasn't room for all; they just wanted it to be "their stage".

This was done while Captain FOH was watching and did not object, but rather was re-dialing his mixer for the warmup band, and that he had taken no notes as to how he had things set up for our band so that he could go back to that setup when the time came.

Lesson learned: Unless you're working with someone who has already earned your trust, trust no one else to care properly about your own concerns. Otherwise there's no one to blame but yourself.

G.

 

[SonicAlbert]

4. do what your supposed to do as a performer and just perform the best you can.

Yes *but*: As far as the audience is concerned it's the band that sounds bad, not the sound guy.

So it's really tough if the sound guy is not cutting it. And generally speaking the worse they are the more defensive and difficult to deal with they are.

Somebody has to be watching quality control, and it's really the band that has to do what they can to make sure they sound good.

 

[jmorris]

Yes *but*: As far as the audience is concerned it's the band that sounds bad, not the sound guy.

So it's really tough if the sound guy is not cutting it. And generally speaking the worse they are the more defensive and difficult to deal with they are.

Somebody has to be watching quality control, and it's really the band that has to do what they can to make sure they sound good.

I agree totally. Now in my case I was not in the band but recording them but I do agree. If I get permission, I will post samples of the event. It really isnt bad but could have been much better.

 

[BudgetMC]

I ran sound for bar bands for years, and still run sound for my current group. As such, I know what a grind the job can be. Musicians are often jerks (amazing but true) and don't show much appreciation when you bust your ass to make them sound good.

That said, as a musician, I've had a few gigs where the sound guy was totally off-the-charts bad. I remember one gig at an Ohio college a few years ago, where we had been told "don't bring gear, we're paying big bucks for the sound." We showed up, and the sound gear looked great. The guy running it was TOTALLY clueless. The whole night was an agonizing feedback-fest... despite the utter lack of monitoring. UGH indeed!

 

[born]

I look at his board at the channels the acoustics are on, the gain is at like 2 and fader almost all the way to top!!! I told him " hey, you need to raise the gain and bring the fader down,Im getting pretty much nothing". He responded " no, I cant, I'll get feedback" . Please..........

I mean when you cant even set up gain structure on a board..come on!

If I'm assuming correctly, the case of the acoustic guitars is supposed to be an example of poor gain structure? Personally I disagree and feel that - assuming the fader that was "almost all the way to top" was set at somewhere close to unity - this is more an example of good gain structure.

In a live situation where you're there to provide a FOH mix, you're job is to optimise levels through the desk, not to the direct out. It is quite common when mixing live sound to get the basic mix with the faders set at unity and use the mic gain/line trim to balance levels. This makes sense for more than one reason, but when talking gain structure through the desk why gain a signal so much that you have to attenuate it at the next stage??? Sure, at times you might want to push the channel on a (good) desk close to/just into distortion with something that warrants a little edge, but in the case of an acoustic guitar (depending on the style of playing) it's probably best to stick with optimum gain structure.

I understand that this guy may have been a bit of a douche bag, but from what you've said it would seem he did at least know how to set up the gain structure... just my 2 cents.

As for the feedback thing, I'm not sure where he pulled that from... he may have been able to weakly justify it if he was mixing monitors from the desk as well... monitors, when mixed from the FOH board, are typically mixed using pre-fade aux sends, which means you crank the gain you crank the monitors and run the risk of running into feedback and upsetting the musicians by ruining the balance... using the solo function on the aux sends and a set of headphones can overcome this problem to a certain extent... so agreed, he may have been a bit of a douche... but there is another but...

Have you ever had any live sound experience? I don't want to stand up for a guy that was maybe not that good, but there will be guys who will work to accommodate your wants and needs, and there will be other guys who just prefer to not have the distraction of it. If you haven't had experience mixing live it's very very different to sitting in your studio, particularly at a festival type event where you typically have band after band play, normally with nothing more than a line check as the sound check. Consider that the poor sound guy has to set up mic gain, insert settings (comps/gates/anything else that may be patched in), insert return levels, aux levels, rough eq, etc, for all instruments in a matter of minutes. Then he has to hope that when the band starts playing nothing's too far off, and then proceed to pull a FOH mix (and possibly monitor mixes) in less time than what you may sometimes spend getting a snare drum sound in your studio. Then some guy who's tapping off his board - despite the fact he could have bought a splitter, his own preamps and his own mics which could have, just maybe, been recorded without the need for them to be plugged into the desk which may have elminated half the problems - wants him to crank the gain and pull the fader down, and then possibly have to readjust monitors, whilst watching the singer who's getting close to his monitor, has poor mic technique and a dynamic range that has to be ridden at the same time as a trying to accommodate the guitarist madly flicking pedals on and off producing disjointed tones and levels, etc, etc, etc, and you might understand that really it can be the sort of job where some people just like to do it their own way because they have a system which works so they don't want to disrupt it.

Perhaps his mic choices, placement, or whatever else may not have been what is considered best... but really, was the sound at the show bad? If he pulled an acceptable mix at the show, then he's done his job.

Just remember, some sound guys will be assholes. Some people are assholes. Some sound guys will be lovely people. Some people are lovely people. Some sound guys are idiots... and yes, some people are idiots. Yes, live sound guys are normal people, and you will run into idiots working in the profession, just as you run into idiots every day. So what? That's life, deal with it.

 

[gecko zzed]

Just remember, some sound guys will be assholes. Some people are assholes. Some sound guys will be lovely people. Some people are lovely people. Some sound guys are idiots... and yes, some people are idiots. Yes, live sound guys are normal people, and you will run into idiots working in the profession, just as you run into idiots every day. So what? That's life, deal with it.

I'm in total agreement with all of born's comments, and in particular the one above. Having done live mixing, live recording, studio recording and performed in bands for all those scenarios as well, I am familar with the less-than-gifted practitioners (mixing, recording and performing). But I also know many more who were professional and great at what they do.

So statements such as "no lessons to be learned here other than most sound guys are idiots" are gross generalisations and unhelpful.

 

[notsocoolguy]

It is quite common when mixing live sound to get the basic mix with the faders set at unity and use the mic gain/line trim to balance levels

Have you done much live sound before?
That sounds like a horrible technique which, I'll admit, alot of newer people do, but it's quite bad form! And I say this with over 10 years experience in live sound...

A basic line test should be able to be done in under 10 minutes easy, you don't need to hear anything out of front of house, just solo the channel, get the guy to play, set gains to 0 or just under, and onto the next channel... This boosts the voltage up to a decent level to be able to drive the EQ, AUX sends, Direct outs, whatever LINE LEVEL devices which may come after the preamp which are expecting LINE LEVEL... If your not boosting the mic signal up to LINE LEVEL, everything else after in your signal chain will suffer...

Once you have those gains set, mix with the FADERS, that's what they are there for! Obviously if the guitarist cranks his amp between line check and the show you'll need to do a bit o tweaking there, but for general mixing, faders are where it's at!

Just sounds like your guy didn't have the sharpest gain structure laid out... Which would be quite a pain for someone trying to tap out of his direct outs... Perhaps he didn't like you and just wanted to annoy you?

 

[mixsit]

..Once you have those gains set, mix with the FADERS, that's what they are there for! ...

I think one of the points that came away from it though was that if that board is also doing monitors, onec it's up and running it's tougher to make changes up at the front end.