Master Bus Question! (Plug-in?)

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xmortumx

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Well I have a question (noob) Should i leave the master bus alone with no plug-in and lower the fader to prevent clipping during mixing, or a good plug-in such as compression or limiter will do better?

Whats the best thing to do so my mix down will be ready for mastering process?
 
xmortumx said:
Well I have a question (noob) Should i leave the master bus alone with no plug-in and lower the fader to prevent clipping during mixing, or a good plug-in such as compression or limiter will do better?

Whats the best thing to do so my mix down will be ready for mastering process?
Click to expand...

theres a big thread about this somewhere, use the search button.
But I often bring the master fader down by a few db, it certainly wont do anything
but with 24bit recording you shouldn't be getting major clipping and should have plenty of room.
I would rather turn the master down then slap some dirty brick wall.

good luck
Aviv
 
i was looking for that thread but couldn't find it.. thanks.


also its okay if the overall mix comes out not to loud.. right.. then in the mastering process that when you try to get it as loud without clipping.. right???
 
Correct. As long as the average master bus signal is around -18 dBFS while you mix and the peak signal is clear of clipping, you're doing fine.
 
Even lower is fine. Where there is a "standard" mixing level, it's around -24dBRMS - Which is pretty typical of the better-sounding projects that come in here. Few are louder.

That said - They do tend to have an average crest of around 18dB...
 
xmortumx said:
Should i leave the master bus alone with no plug-in and lower the fader to prevent clipping during mixing,
Click to expand...

If you have to lower the master fader to prevent clipping then i would remix some levels.
When i mix i keep the master fader right at 0 and try to get it around -5 db

if you create a bus for your ....say..guitar tracks, then after you add all your effects you notice that even when your bus fader is at 0 you are in the red. If you lower the bus fader you will be out of the red, but the bus still contains the digital clipping, it's just lower then before.

this is just the way i do things, it might differ from others, so take it as another man's opinion.
---mike---
 
I agree with mike and benny. You shouldnt have to lower your master fader. It should always be at unity gain while mixing.
 
An interesting question: if you're at least a couple dB from clipping, is there ever any reason for you to lower the master fader by a couple of dB?


*EDIT: I assume no...
 
If you're short of clipping? As long as it's "natural" (no limiting or excessive buss compression) then as long as you're not clipping, you're okay.
 
Massive Master said:
If you're short of clipping? As long as it's "natural" (no limiting or excessive buss compression) then as long as you're not clipping, you're okay.
Click to expand...

Well yes, but is there any possible advantage? I'm not 100% on how all of these things are inter-related, but I'd think all I'm doing is raising the noise floor, right?
 
Digital has no "built-in" noise like tape -- If you raise the level of something by 3dB, you're raising the noise on the track by 3dB. But the signal-to-noise is generally the same.
 
My understanding

Massive Master said:
If you're short of clipping? As long as it's "natural" (no limiting or excessive buss compression) then as long as you're not clipping, you're okay.
Click to expand...

xmortumx said:
Well I have a question (noob) Should i leave the master bus alone with no plug-in and lower the fader to prevent clipping during mixing, or a good plug-in such as compression or limiter will do better?
Click to expand...

I maybe be wrong, but this is the way i read the post:

xmortumx is clipping in is master fader, he wants to know if he should
A: lower the fader to prevent the clipping
B: add a limiter to prevent the clipping



Lo-Fi Mike said:
If you have to lower the master fader to prevent clipping then i would remix some levels.
Click to expand...

Again, this is just my understanding of his question.

---mike---
 
If the Master is clipping can you not group all the tracks and bring the faders down together to prevent clipping on the master?

Thats what I do. I like to leave the Master at 0.

Mixing wise I also leave about 6db headroom on my Master so I have space for mastering plugs. I don't master and mix at the same time. Prefer to have a quieter mix to master after the event with a fresh pair of ears to boot.
 
Exactly

Mr Clean said:
If the Master is clipping can you not group all the tracks and bring the faders down together to prevent clipping on the master?

Thats what I do. I like to leave the Master at 0.

Mixing wise I also leave about 6db headroom on my Master so I have space for mastering plugs. I don't master and mix at the same time. Prefer to have a quieter mix to master after the event with a fresh pair of ears to boot.
Click to expand...

I agree, I'm basically saying the exact same thing, you just put it much better than i did. :)

I like to leave a little head room in each recorded track for effects per track, Then leave a little room in each bus for bus effects, then send the bus tracks to the master....leaving a little room for the mastering engineer.

I don't know why, but my pro-tools method one video says "you want to record every track as hot as possible with out clipping"
that to me is kinda weird.

---mike---
 
Lo-Fi Mike said:
I don't know why, but my pro-tools method one video says "you want to record every track as hot as possible with out clipping"
that to me is kinda weird.
Click to expand...

Who-ever made the video probably still had a 16bit recording head on. With today's 24bit recording, as hot as possible is no longer necessary is it. (I'm not telling you, I'm sure you know)

I agree with everything you said about tracks and busses. You went further into what I was saying. I think we got it covered. ;)
 
Mixing wise I also leave about 6db headroom on my Master so I have space for mastering plugs. I don't master and mix at the same time. Prefer to have a quieter mix to master after the event with a fresh pair of ears to boot.
Click to expand...
Let's not think of it as "quieter" -- I prefer to think of it as "normal."

The levels that CD are coming out at currently are anything but "normal" --

Instead of "quiet" and "normal" we should call it "normal" and "crushed to death."

I don't know why, but my pro-tools method one video says "you want to record every track as hot as possible with out clipping"
Click to expand...
It wasn't even a good idea in 16-bit. It wasn't even a good idea with tape -- Where there really is a real noise floor.

"Good" levels. "Normal" (for lack of a better term) levels will rarely approach the point of digital clipping. And in any case, lower (within reason) is almost universally better - Cleaner, more focused, less distorted, etc.
 
Just a note on Pro Tools. The TDM version of PT uses a 48 bit path when summing, It can handle quite a few tracks at full scale before clipping, so lowering the fader in this case is essentailly the same as lowering all of the tracks (and doesn't require you to remix). Check out the digidesign white paper for a full explanation.

The definitive answer is to know how your DAW works internally and work within its limitations.

Recording hotter creates a better signal to noise ratio, but in digital it really isn't too much of an issue. Recording hot to tape was to take advantage of its natural compression abilities and "sound" as well as signal to noise. In either case you have to balance the pros with the potential issue of generating distortion. You can be either too safe or too aggressive.
 
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