Ongoing Drum Help

TelePaul

TelePaul

J to the R O C
Okay guys I got my first shot at recording drums today. And it was...wait for it....




A disaster.:o

Let me just say I've so much more respect for you guys, I'm already appreciating how complex an instrument the drums are. There's so much wrong with my set-up, so what I'm proposing to do is post a series of MP3s and try to work on my tracking/mixing step-by-step. How would that sound?

Initially, I can tell that I need to work on my tuning. I'll post a clip later and maybe you guys could make suggestions? My cymbals are awful but I'm in the process of sourcing a new set.

Does this sound like a plan? I'd be real grateful, it'd be like a project all of it's own; Project getting TelePauls drums to sound not shit!
 
TelePaul said:
Okay guys I got my first shot at recording drums today. And it was...wait for it....




A disaster.:o

Let me just say I've so much more respect for you guys, I'm already appreciating how complex an instrument the drums are. There's so much wrong with my set-up, so what I'm proposing to do is post a series of MP3s and try to work on my tracking/mixing step-by-step. How would that sound?

Initially, I can tell that I need to work on my tuning. I'll post a clip later and maybe you guys could make suggestions? My cymbals are awful but I'm in the process of sourcing a new set.

Does this sound like a plan? I'd be real grateful, it'd be like a project all of it's own; Project getting TelePauls drums to sound not shit!
Click to expand...

yeah, it's taken me about 5 years to only get to a point where my drum recordings don't make me sick, depressed, and furious all at the same time. :o:(:mad:

:D

but, on an encouraging note, when i started i didn't have this forum, so it should fall into place much more quickly for you.

tuning, room, and mic placement account for at least 80% of getting a good drum sound. iirc, you said your room is large, which is good. you still may want to treat it, but you're at a starting point that's much less hostile than a tiny room (like mine).

what mics are you using and what's your placement scenario?

good luck in finding a new set, and especially new cymbals! looking forward to clips! :)
 
just having the drums sound good themselves is the biggest thing. nice drums with good heads that are tuned well and appropriate cymbals will get you a long way.

you could do a lot worse for cymbals than one of the prepackaged sets from zildjian or really any of the major makers...just stay away from the budget stuff like the ZBTs or B8 line. my favorites are the zildjian A customs.

and don't overlook the kick heads. i really like the aquarian superkick package or the evans EMAD. it beats the hell out of having a big ass pillow in the drum choking out the sound. especially for rock.
 
TelePaul said:
Okay guys I got my first shot at recording drums today. And it was...wait for it....




A disaster.:o

Let me just say I've so much more respect for you guys, I'm already appreciating how complex an instrument the drums are. There's so much wrong with my set-up, so what I'm proposing to do is post a series of MP3s and try to work on my tracking/mixing step-by-step. How would that sound?

Initially, I can tell that I need to work on my tuning. I'll post a clip later and maybe you guys could make suggestions? My cymbals are awful but I'm in the process of sourcing a new set.

Does this sound like a plan? I'd be real grateful, it'd be like a project all of it's own; Project getting TelePauls drums to sound not shit!
Click to expand...

I'll help however I can.
 
Thanks everyone! This is gonna be a labour of love.

First up the kit is a Pearl Target. I'll hopefully be getting some new cymbals next month..I was thinking Paiste PST5s, hi-hatt and crash/ride. I'm also having a buddy round to help me tune these things well - might go for some new skins with the cymbals, but again, that's a few weeks off.

As for mics...well it aint pretty. I've a matched pair of Naiant MS2s which is good, a couple of pretty standard dynamics - A sennhesier and audio tehcnica, nothing fancy, standard vox mics really - and a couple of LDCs.
So nothing purposely suited to drum micing as such.

I read in a home-recording handbook that mic'ing the kick with a LDC is viable...so I attached a pop filter and gave it a shot...but even with the smallest amount of gain, the thing was way too loud! I should mention that I took the resonant head off the kick - again, this was recommended by the handbook.

So what else is there to say? Oh yeah, the room is a conservatory - wooden floor and glass ceiling (I know, horribly impractical, but it's all I've got!). I ahve three 6' X 4' Gobos that are hinged to form a foam partition. I think that's all there is to know...

As it stands, I'm going to experiment with positioning and tuning some more tomorrow...I'll find a place to host various samples and I guess we could take it from there.
 
Kick drums are loud and pump out a lot of power. My guitarist says he can feel the rush of air coming out of my front port every time I stomp it and he's like 8 feet away. I wouldn't put an LDC in there. The very general consensus is dynamics for close micing, condensers for O/H's.

There's all kinds of OH techniques and just as many opinions on which one is best. Try a few and see which one you're comfy with. I'd suggest starting with 4 mics. Kick, snare, 2 O/H's. You're gonna hear a whole lot of "you should get most of your sound from the O/H's". Fuck that. Yeah O/H's are super important, but unless your room and everything else is fantastic, that philosophy is kinda limited in our home recording realm. Close mics are your friend in a modest home studio. Learn how to mix them in to supplement your OH sound. If you're doing modern rock and want a big punchy drum sound, you'll want more close micing. If you're looking for a raw and natural sound, use more O/H's. Nothing is set in stone. Experiment. But don't let some of the old fuddy-duddy opinions steer you wrong. Just because Ringo did it, doesn't mean it's good. Ringo sucked. :D
 
Greg_L said:
There's all kinds of OH techniques and just as many opinions on which one is best. Try a few and see which one you're comfy with. I'd suggest starting with 4 mics. Kick, snare, 2 O/H's. You're gonna hear a whole lot of "you should get most of your sound from the O/H's". Fuck that. Yeah O/H's are super important, but unless your room and everything else is fantastic, that philosophy is kinda limited in our home recording realm. Close mics are your friend in a modest home studio. Learn how to mix them in to supplement your OH sound. If you're doing modern rock and want a big punchy drum sound, you'll want more close micing. If you're looking for a raw and natural sound, use more O/H's. Nothing is set in stone. Experiment. But don't let some of the old fuddy-duddy opinions steer you wrong. Just because Ringo did it, doesn't mean it's good. Ringo sucked. :D
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Okay, don't wanna piss you off Greg, but initially I've found spaced O/Hs give a fairly balanced account of the kit. I think this is because my kick is just killing me..the mic is picking up alot of snare, and when I gate it it just sounds like something punching a cow. I don't know if it's the mic, the tuning, the room, muffling or what...

It'll probably be monday before I can post any samples.
 
TelePaul said:
I've found spaced O/Hs give a fairly balanced account of the kit.
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If that's the case, good. Go with it. Personally, I depend mostly on my overheads, and I'm not even an old fuddy-duddy. :D

I think this is because my kick is just killing me..the mic is picking up alot of snare, and when I gate it it just sounds like something punching a cow.
Click to expand...

See if it affects the mix before you gate it. What seems like "a lot of snare" when you solo your kik, might not be audible with everything up. If you still feel the need to gate it, you can have the gate stay open until the snare hits, which is usually a beat away from the kik (kik's usually playing around 1 & 3, snare's usually playing around the 2 & 4...generally speaking). That means you usually have time to let the kik decay before the snare opens the gate again.

I hope that made sense.:eek:
 
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Tele, listen to these guys, and take LOTS of time...it won't happen overnight, but they can have tons of great ideas to try. My room sucks...just a bedroom, and I use cheap mics and a cheap kit, but I've gotten some useable sounds already just from trying some tricks that these guys have provided. Don't be afraid to experiment on mic placement, as with your room one technique may have way better resylts than another.

Good luck man...:D
 
TelePaul said:
Okay, don't wanna piss you off Greg, but initially I've found spaced O/Hs give a fairly balanced account of the kit. I think this is because my kick is just killing me..the mic is picking up alot of snare, and when I gate it it just sounds like something punching a cow. I don't know if it's the mic, the tuning, the room, muffling or what...

It'll probably be monday before I can post any samples.
Click to expand...

Lol. Why would that piss me off? If spaced O/H's work for you, then go with it. There's more than one way to skin a cat. I personally use the Recorderman method. Works for me in my craptastic room.

I agree with Rami about gating the kick. Do it if you want to, but don't spend too much time worrying about mixing drums with no instruments around them. Things change once you pile bass, keys, and guitars all over them. And snare bleed in the kick track most likely won't be heard once everythings rolling. If you can hear snare bleed in a kick track in the mix, you need to rethink your mic placement. I don't see how that's even possible though. I've fumbled my way through all kinds of tricks and techniques and have never heard the snare on the kick track through the mix.

I'm not trying to downplay the importance of overheads with my previous comment. They are very important. I'm just saying to be wary of the "You only need two mics because that's how Bonham did it!" crowd.
 
Greg_L said:
I'm not trying to downplay the importance of overheads with my previous comment. They are very important. I'm just saying to be wary of the "You only need two mics because that's how Bonham did it!" crowd.
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I know. Fuck off anyway. :D :D:p:p
 
Hehe.....you don't want to know........:eek: :D

All joking aside, The Gerg has great, full sounding toms.

I have a little trouble getting meat out of mine lately. But, I blame myself before I'd blame the fact that I don't close mic them. I've been listening to some of my older drum tacks, and even though they don't sound as good as my newer drum tracks, my toms were beefier. So, I know it''s not the lack of close mics. I've been coming to the conclusion that I'm cutting too much low end out of my overheads. So there's something to watch out for.
 
Not that I'm a pro but I've been tweaking my drum sounds for a couple years now so if you can use any of this, feel free.

After tuning my drums...(which took me awhile to figure out :rolleyes:)

I use the recorderman technique. I use a beta 52, an Audix I5 or a 57 on snare and a pair of Shure KSM109's as OH's. I use the -10 db rolloff on them. Get the kick and snare centered in the cans. And I do get most of my kit sounding good and balanced with just the OH's. They're worth spending some time getting right.

I have the reso head (with the hole) on the kick and place my 52 just inside the hole, off to a bit to the side to keep it outta the way of the air whoosh coming out da hole (kinda like my butt :D) and angled at the beater. When I use a subkick, I'll push the mic in fairly close to the beater to get a bit more click.

On my snare mic, I angle it at the center of the snare (ish) at about a 30 degree angle and pointing in the direction of my floor tom. I don't get as much hi-hat bleed this way.

More times than not...I'll add close mics to the toms and just lately I ended up adding a HH and ride cymbal mic. These songs just needed that extra control for tweaking in the mix.

I'm also finding that tuning my kick beater head lower (for slap) and tuning my kick reso up (til I find the tone) is sounding better to my ears.

But I'm a guitar player that digs the drums.

Hope somethin helps Teleman...


ymmv..

(I know what that means now :D)
 
Greg_L said:
Ringo sucked.
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No, Meg White sucks!!!
Ringo has perfect time, period. That is the most important part of a good drummer. Just because some guy can play double kick licks doesn't mean he's awesome. My friend has killer chops and people think he's so awesome because of it. But his tempo and technique suck. If he had technique and Ringo's meter, he'd be the most versatile drummer in town.
 
cobradenim said:
No, Meg White sucks!!!
Ringo has perfect time, period. That is the most important part of a good drummer. Just because some guy can play double kick licks doesn't mean he's awesome. My friend has killer chops and people think he's so awesome because of it. But his tempo and technique suck. If he had technique and Ringo's meter, he'd be the most versatile drummer in town.
Click to expand...

Who the fuck is Meg White?

I'm not saying Ringo sucks because he didn't do blast beats. Ringo wasn't even good for his era. He was in the right place at at the right time and now he's legendary.
 
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