Ongoing Drum Help

Greg_L said:
I agree. Peter Criss was a tard. The way I see it with famous drummers is that if I can play what they play, then they suck. ;)
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lol not hardly...

Peter Criss should wish he could play as good as you... :)

I remember during Kiss' heyday (First heyday? Second? :confused: ) The drum rags would all have their 'Reader's Poll' about who is the best 'this drummer' and the best 'that drummer' and Criss would always come out on top...

And then Stones had their resurgence and Charlie Watts topped the polls...

Just like any election, it was all a popularity contest...

TelePaul - Waiting to hear your samples, but best I can say is, just like all recording, trust your ears. If the drums sound good in the OH's and no close mics, then that's your formula... Everything that has been said before is all I can offer as well... Just experiment to find the sweet spot(s). Heck, at my guitar player's studio, we found an excellent room mic placement was to point an SDC at the control room window... The reflection of the drums from the glass was perfect... No textbook will ever show that technique tho ;)
 
TelePaul said:
My cymbals are awful but I'm in the process of sourcing a new set.
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I recommend Stagg DHs for your crashes. They sound pretty good recorded imo. I've got a 14" and 15" and love them.

I'm just starting to get a bearable sound from my drums. I've always struggled with the kick, but i got the Evans EMAD (Use the smaller dampening ring) and mic only the batter side('cause my room is so small - 9'x5' - there isn't enough room for a mic on the reso side) with my t.bone BD300. I mic my snare with my t.bone SC300 and use my Naiant MSH-2s for overheads.

I have two clouds(on my 6'6" ceiling) and 4 gobos. The only thing that let my recordings down were the toms and I've just replaced the heads(with clear Evans EC2s) and got a much nicer sound (gotta test them out in recording now).

I've got an unmixed recording with old heads, with the slightest amount of reverb and no other fx, and with guitars, that I'll upload for you to hear if you wish?



As a side note, i was using the cheapest of cheap head on my snare which started off sounding a bit shit, but which i gradually tweaked and got a lovely sound out of. It was getting a little old, so i changed it along with my toms and can't get as good a sound any more. I was using the one that comes in the millenium full set from thomann for £11 and now use the Evans Genera HDD. I did tweak it a little today and it is better, but still not as good. Any tips?
 
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Alright lads, the bad news is I still suck at recording drums! The good news is that I've posted samples of my efforts. You can download the zipped file here:

http://www.box.net/shared/l6h7gx2feq

The names should be pretty explanatory; there's a take with the full kit recorded and mixed down at unity gain (0.00dB), a taken with just the OHs mixed down at unity gain. The individual samples were recorded to provide a reference for tuning - which I'm in dire need of help on!

Cheers guys
 
What size are those toms? They all sound a little tight to me. I'd shoot for the lowest clear sound you can get from each drum. They have tone, but they seem tight to me.

The snare sounds pretty right-on so far.

The kick seems a little tight too. Not bad though.

You're getting a lot of phase issues with the overheads. The snare is leaning to the right and I'm hearing some kick reflection in the right ear. Those 2 drums should be straight centered through the overheads. Check your overhead placement. Something is off. Not bad for a first try though. Minor adjustments and you're there.
 
Thanks Greg - I know you're being uber nice, because even to my untrained ears, thsoe drums sound kinda shitty! :o Granted, I am listening through headphones.

I didn't notice the phase issues but I didn't give much consideration to placement...here's how they look relative to my room.

fxqxhc.jpg


uvnyv.jpg
 
Listen to Gerg on the phase issue, and line the OH's up really exact with the snare...that really helped me.
 
Holy moly thats some serious drum angles. :D

I'm not a set-up nazi by any means, but man, having drums all over the place like that aint good. Bring everything a little closer together and kind of flatten them out.

In my opinion, any thought-out OH setup is good and will work as long as the overheads are equal distances from the snare and kick. Phase problems pop up when one mic picks up a signal before the other. This makes the drum sound flat and leaning to one side or the other. It's up to you to decide which technique you wanna use, but the Recorderman and Glyn Johns methods are popular and simple and get great results.
 
I like the sound you're getting from the snare and the first tom...

One thing I have my students do when tuning their toms is to do a 'basic 4ths' around the kit... Essentially, if you're happy with the first tom, tune the 2nd tom down a 4th from there (roughly). And then the floor tom a 4th down from the 2nd tom... You don't have to connect a strobe tuner to get exact :p Rule of thumb: Sing 'Here comes the bride' between the two toms you are working on... Get it close to that and then season to taste :)

I agree with Greg on your kick... Sounds like one of those toy store Indian drums or sumpin... :confused:

It sorta sounds beefier in the kick sample, but in the Full kit recording it's really high... Maybe try an Aquarian Super Kick and take her down a few notches in tuning...

You got her on the ropes... A little more tweaking and by-jove I think you'll have it :)

(Maybe try leveling those toms a little too...) :D
 
Thanks alot for that folks.

Firstly though, whattya mean by 'level'? Change the tilt of the toms?

Greg I'll get it together and try position the OHs better...if they're supposed to be equidistant from the snare, and the snare is on the left, will the left OH be pretty far out of the way?

Rabbit, when you say I should tune to 'Here Comes the Bride', what drums should I hit when? Should it be the floor tom for 'here', the bigger rack tom for 'comes' and the smaller rack tom for 'the bride'? Sorry to have to spell it out like that...I just have no idea what a fourth is. I know it refers to an interval, but I don't know what an interval is.

Thanks guys.
 
I'm at work so I can't listen yet but...

On the OH's...the easiest way I found to set them up consistently is...

take 2 drumsticks, held end to end, and put one end in the middle of the snare drum skin standing straight up. Where the tip is... is roughly where your left (drummers perspective) OH will be... pointing straight down at the center of the snare.

Take those same 2 sticks, end to end, from the center of your snare skin and point them over to your right shoulder (again drummers perspective). This is roughly where your right OH will be, pointing at the center of your snare skin. (yeah, this is gonna look a little weird.)

Where the fine tuning comes in is to get your kick and snare centered in your headphones. I like to take a guitar cable and put one end where the kick beater meets the skin. With the cable there, go up to the bottom of your left OH and mark it. (the cable) Now with the cable still at the same place on the kick beater, extend the cable from the place at the beater to the right OH. This is where you'll tweak the distance of the right OH till they're pretty much the same distance and your kick and snare sound centered.

Does that make sense?

I tried to find the pics I did but.....:rolleyes:

Anyway, hopefully I can add something after I get home and can listen.

Hope it helps mang........
 
TelePaul said:
Firstly though, whattya mean by 'level'? Change the tilt of the toms?
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lol yes...
:D

But far be it from me to tell you what's comfortable for you to play... If that angle works for you, then it's right ;)

TelePaul said:
tune to 'Here Comes the Bride', what drums should I hit when?
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Do two toms at a time.

Get your 1st tom tuned to where you like it and then tune the 2nd tom to the 1st one: Tom 2 = 'Here' Tom 1 = 'Comes the bride'

When you're happy with tom 2 then go to your floor tom and tune it to 'Here' with tom 2 doing 'comes the bride'...

Again, that tuning tip is no where near being set in stone, but it helps to give you a bit of a starting point...

:)
 
Dogbreath said:
I'm at work so I can't listen yet but...

On the OH's...the easiest way I found to set them up consistently is...

take 2 drumsticks, held end to end, and put one end in the middle of the snare drum skin standing straight up. Where the tip is... is roughly where your left (drummers perspective) OH will be... pointing straight down at the center of the snare.

Take those same 2 sticks, end to end, from the center of your snare skin and point them over to your right shoulder (again drummers perspective). This is roughly where your right OH will be, pointing at the center of your snare skin. (yeah, this is gonna look a little weird.)

Where the fine tuning comes in is to get your kick and snare centered in your headphones. I like to take a guitar cable and put one end where the kick beater meets the skin. With the cable there, go up to the bottom of your left OH and mark it. (the cable) Now with the cable still at the same place on the kick beater, extend the cable from the place at the beater to the right OH. This is where you'll tweak the distance of the right OH till they're pretty much the same distance and your kick and snare sound centered.

Does that make sense?

I tried to find the pics I did but.....:rolleyes:

Anyway, hopefully I can add something after I get home and can listen.

Hope it helps mang........
Click to expand...

What Dogbreath just described is basically the Recorderman method. Works great.
 
preface: put down a 4th vote for recorderman--it's worked wonders for my sound.

ok, for a first attempt this isn't bad at all. you're getting wet, and now you just need some sea legs. now i'm going to tear it apart, but it's for your own good! :D

the snare is definitely leaning right, but based on your OHs, it's obvious why (i assume you're panning the OHs to present an image as heard from in front of the kit, not behind it). recorderman/glyn johns will eliminate this problem, as well as the phasing issues.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5Fjuz7jXzs

if you try it and can't get the kick to line up like they show in the vid, don't sweat it, mine doesn't either. the snare is the important thing, especially since you're miking the kick. you can also use string instead of 2 drumsticks to get your mics out further. experimentation will be in order.

kick is definitely weak. what mic are you using? you definitely want a large diaphram dynamic in there. i'd also get it on a stand, pointing at the batter head off center. moving it out some will help get more low end out of it too.

new cymbals are definitely needed, especially hats.

i'm also w/ greg and bentrabbit on the tom tuning. (too tight, tune to major 4ths)

that's all i got. good luck! keep posting as your sound improves. it'll be fun to see the progress! :)
 
drossfile said:
the snare is the important thing, especially since you're miking the kick.
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+100000000000000

An out-of-phase snare will show up even with a close-mic on it. Not so much with the kick. And make sure the mic capsules are pointed at the center of the snare.
 
Dogbreath said:
take 2 drumsticks, held end to end, and put one end in the middle of the snare drum skin standing straight up. Where the tip is... is roughly where your left (drummers perspective) OH will be... pointing straight down at the center of the snare.

Take those same 2 sticks, end to end, from the center of your snare skin and point them over to your right shoulder (again drummers perspective). This is roughly where your right OH will be, pointing at the center of your snare skin. (yeah, this is gonna look a little weird.)
Click to expand...

Okay...but wont the left OH - being just above the snare - pick up the snare sound before the right OH?

Edit: Whoops, just saw the video, I see what you're saying. I'll give it a try.
 
drossfile said:
kick is definitely weak. what mic are you using? you definitely want a large diaphram dynamic in there. i'd also get it on a stand, pointing at the batter head off center. moving it out some will help get more low end out of it too.
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I'm using a small diaphragm dynamic for the kick. I know I need something like an AKG D112 but it's not gonna happen this side of Christmas. New cymbals maybe, but a specialised kick drum...nah, not on the cards! :o
 
Hi Telepaul

A lot of small diaphragm dynamics (sm57 etc) have a weak low end...like
5 to 10 db down at 40 Hz even with proximity effect.

If you are on a budget you can use a speaker for a kick mic. Plenty of information on the web about that.

I like recorderman too, but can't always use it. Right now I have a drummer
that really whacks the things, so i'm having to mic all the drums in the kit
for control. Generally I don't like to do this.

I personally don't center the snare, but I do this:

Each drum mic (excluding overheads) is sent to two channels panned left and right. Both those channels have a delay plugin...typically one to five
milliseconds. That allows me to have almost total control over phasing issues.
The different delay in left and right allows virtual path length differences to be dialed in just like a spaced pair. This avoids the "multi mono" effect of
just volume panning individual drums.

It's a little complicated looking in the software, but I keep a template all set up and just load that. I can just crank the delay while i'm listening to null out
phasing issues. When its off things sound like a flanger, but that effect goes away at some delay setting.

If possible though I use recorderman with a kick mic. But that doesn't work for every song and every drummer for me.

Les
 
TelePaul said:
I'm using a small diaphragm dynamic for the kick. I know I need something like an AKG D112 but it's not gonna happen this side of Christmas. New cymbals maybe, but a specialised kick drum...nah, not on the cards! :o
Click to expand...

perfectly understandable. just don't forget that ebay is your friend! :D
 
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