Want it louder, but not kill the dynamics

  • Thread starter Thread starter Rokket
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Rokket

Rokket

Trailing Behind Again
I have been listening to my mixes a lot lately, mostly due to the fact that I am in the middle of the ocean, and can't track anything.

So I am practicing mixing. I do an entire session, then delete all the work files and start over. It's mind numbing, but it gets me by.

So I realized a HUGE difference in even cd's that I have that were produced before the louder is better bullshit came along. In my mixes, the clarity is there. I can hear every instrument and vocal; each has their own space in the mix. So that in itself is a big accomplishment.

But I want to get louder without compressing all the soul out of the mix. I can't send them out to be mastered, and even if I could, I probably wouldn't. So what can I do on this end to get them louder without compromising the dynamics?

I've tried all the old tricks: compressors, limiters, even some "mastering" plugins. How do you satisfy the customer's need for ear bleed without killing a good mix?
 
Rokket said:
How do you satisfy the customer's need for ear bleed without killing a good mix?
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First, Rokket, keep up the great work out there in the seven seas. We very much appreciate it stateside. Thanks! :)

As far as the question at hand, what we're actually talking about is perceived volume. There are two basic approaches to increasing ths. One is to actually do the kind of thing you're doing in actually trying to boost the volume levels through electronic manipulation.

There, you might be able to squeeze out a bit more without ruining it by doing the squeezing in careful stages. Check out this post for an example strategy.

Alternately, some also use a method dumping the mix out to analong and bringing it back into digital through an ultra-clean A/D converter that's driven slightly into clipping. This is a controversial method (and I am against it philosophically myself), but it is one that is in play more ofthen than you may think.

The other way, which doesn't get talked about much here, but is used fairly often by the Big Boy producers these days - especially in a lot of the college alt stuff - is to add some kind of extra track or two to the mix that is there mainly to increase the sonic density - and therefore the overall RMS - of the mix. For example, you hear a *lot* of stuff these days where they will add a track or two of fuzztone underneath the main rhythm tracks or even just a track of distortion underneath the entire mix. Sometimes with some phase tricks added to make it sound outside of the soundstage. It adds a grungy edge to the sound, but mostly it "fills up" the holes on the sonic wall of the mix a bit, if done right, raises RMS without pushing peak levels any further, and gets the mix a bit more in the listener's face.

G.
 
Rokket said:
I...So I realized a HUGE difference in even cd's that I have that were produced before the louder is better bullshit came along.
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The current norm is pretty damned extreme.
If your density is below say pre-2000 levels, do you really expect to get anywhere near 'ear bleed and keep it open and dynamic?
What kind of music by the way?
 
Thanks for the tips. I'll check out that post and see what I can do. :cool:
 
mixsit said:
The current norm is pretty damned extreme.
If your density is below say pre-2000 levels, do you really expect to get anywhere near 'ear bleed and keep it open and dynamic?
What kind of music by the way?
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I was just using the ear bleed thing as an example. I really just want them loud enough that I don't have to turn up my cd player all the way when I am listening to them. I don't expect to match a commercial cd without completely destroying the track.

What kind of music? Do you mean mine? I don't know what genre it fits into. My songs are varied enough that I get comments like "sounds like Pink Floyd", to, "that one reminds me of Ozzy."

So I'm at a loss to define it. I'd post a couple of songs, but our server out here doesn't have very much bandwidth. I wouldn't be able to upload anything. I still have some bad mixes up on soundclick. I don't have a link right now. It used to be in my signature when Dragon still had them up for us.
 
You still will need to limit your recordings, but the trick is to find that point where you get the volume you want and it doesn't sound squished.

That's a process of experimentation using a very high quality and invisible sounding limiter plugin.

Another trick is to double the track, and use a compressor to smash the double. Really slam it. Then mix the smashed track back in with the original un-compressed/un-limited track.

A book that will be of great use to you in this process is Bob Katz's "Mastering Audio". Worth every penny.
 
Rokket said:
..I've tried all the old tricks... How do you satisfy ..without killing a good mix?
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:) In that perspective then.. There's very light treatment that does virtually no harm, and/or treatment that actually serves the track's sonics in some manners while sacrificing in other ways, all the way up the scale.

.. I really just want them loud enough that I don't have to turn up my cd player all the way when I am listening to them. I don't expect to match a commercial cd without completely destroying the track.
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That should be fairly benign then and could easily fall into the range of what our ears were comfortable with on earlier rock/pop norms.
Bottom line though, none of this resembles the signature of the raw dynamic. Compared to that, save for some stray peak limiting, something has to give.
:D
 
mixsit said:
:) In that perspective then.. There's very light treatment that does virtually no harm, and/or treatment that actually serves the track's sonics in some manners while sacrificing in other ways, all the way up the scale.

That should be fairly benign then and could easily fall into the range of what our ears were comfortable with on earlier rock/pop norms.
Bottom line though, none of this resembles the signature of the raw dynamic. Compared to that, save for some stray peak limiting, something has to give.
:D
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Let me play with what I already have available to me in Reaper, then I'll start searching the web for some nice limiters. I don't think I want to spend too much money on them right now. It is kind of silly for me to buy an expensive plugin that I don't know how to use, so I'll just get better at using what I have.

Thanks for the responses and helpful links.

Rep all around for those I can give to.
 
I finally found a way to satisfy both, those who wants it hot and those who wants it dynamic.
I apply HDCD compatible peak extensions dynamically while I'm still able to use sophisticated dithering with noise shaping (one of my own developed specialties).
That way, I got a rather hot master for those who insist on it, and at the same time, I give audiophiles the choice to listen to a less compressed playback.
I mastered a snippet of your song, mastered that way of your mp3 (this is lossless, because anything lossy would destroy the HDCD commands): http://www.sendspace.com/file/sq2n2d
 
LogicDeLuxe said:
I apply HDCD compatible peak extensions dynamically while I'm still able to use sophisticated dithering with noise shaping (one of my own developed specialties)..
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Is this a feature or extension of the compressed file or an included second version?
 
mixsit said:
Is this a feature or extension of the compressed file or an included second version?
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The idea behind it is that a HDCD capable DAC can extend the dynamics back to the original wave during playback while on lower end hardware, it still should sound good (slightly compressed, but without exaggerating). So it is a feature. The commands when to use peak extension are embedded into the audio stream. Lossy compression will destroy them, though.
See here for a summery: http://www.audiolinks.nl/hdcd.htm
Or here for a general patent text: http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&RefSrch=yes&Query=PN/5872531
 
I have found it useful and effective to isolate the track that's pushing the mix over the line and apply a little comp to only that track. If possible ,only compress the moment where the overage occurs. Done carefully it will be inaudible, though not all rigs will allow you to be that picky about timing.

chazba
 
LogicDeLuxe said:
I finally found a way to satisfy both, those who wants it hot and those who wants it dynamic.
I apply HDCD compatible peak extensions dynamically while I'm still able to use sophisticated dithering with noise shaping (one of my own developed specialties).
That way, I got a rather hot master for those who insist on it, and at the same time, I give audiophiles the choice to listen to a less compressed playback.
I mastered a snippet of your song, mastered that way of your mp3 (this is lossless, because anything lossy would destroy the HDCD commands): http://www.sendspace.com/file/sq2n2d
Click to expand...
I am at a loss. You're talking over my head a bit... :o

What do the acronyms HDCD and DAC mean?
 
Rokket said:
I am at a loss. You're talking over my head a bit... :o

What do the acronyms HDCD and DAC mean?
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HDCD stands for "High Definition Compatible Digital", and refers to a fairly new encoding/decoding process that is starting to be used on some - but not many yet - CDs that offers higher-quality playback on newer CD players and the latest version of Media Player that support that process, but will still playback as standard CDs with standard CD-quality on older regular CD players that are not HDCD compatible.

DAC just stands for Digital/Analog converter. It's the circuitry that converts the digital information from a CD or digital file back to an analog signal for playback.

@ Logic Deluxe: that's an interesting idea you have there. Do you have any A/B comparisons of the same source as smashed in CDA vs. "extended" in HDCD? I would think that while lossy compression would of course mangle things somewhat, that one would still be able to hear the difference in dynamics and the general sound of the mix between the smashed and dynamic versions, wouldn't one?

G.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
and the latest version of Media Player that support that process
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It only decodes CD as a source, but no WAV or any lossless files, though. If you want to try my example, you need a CD emulator like Daemon Tools. Also you need a 24 bit soundcard, and you have to enable 24 bit output explicitly in the settings, which is not the default.
Do you have any A/B comparisons of the same source as smashed in CDA vs. "extended" in HDCD?
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For those without HDCD capable hardware, here is an example. You still need a 24 bit soundcard, though. The normal CD version is attenuated to 50%*, thus it is also 24 bit, so you really can A/B those.
Standard CD, the same as the example above, but attenuated to match: http://www.sendspace.com/file/j1j09n
Full dynamic version, as you'll get with an HDCD decoder: http://www.sendspace.com/file/qpz30r

*The attenuation is also done by the original DAC, which makes the headroom available for higher peaks in the first place. This is also beneficial for intersample overs, which often occur on hardclipped non-HDCD CDs being really troublesome on cheaper DAC's.
 
Ethan Winer said:
Peak Slammer Review
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So what we have here would be a better mouse trap -to reduce limiter nasties perhaps?
--from their site-- said:
..But over-compression reduces the dynamic range to zero and adds nasty artifacts. Cymbals swell and fade unnaturally; vocals sound overly breathy; and after only a few minutes..
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Unfortunately this is the big nasty, the very nature of lost dynamic -unnatural envelopes, things brought up to be highlighted, all playing at equal (or near) levels.

Like why they outlawed hollow points for war-
Smaller holes = Progress

:)
 
mixsit said:
So what we have here would be a better mouse trap -to reduce limiter nasties perhaps?
Click to expand...

Yes, and that's the whole point. You can increase the overall volume without having pumping or breathing or other compression artifacts. If you push it too much distortion does increase. But used in moderation it's a highly transparent way to make a track louder with no audible detriment.

--Ethan
 
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