Would you pay for a mix you didn't like?

[Farview]

I took the other engineers mix's with us, because they were a bit more flexible, even said if we don't like the mix they didn't mind. He left us and our producer alone for a bit listening, I don't know, maybe its all in our head because he was a bit of a dick as well, so that might have something to do with it. But 5 people and a producer all agreeing?? Cmon how many peope in bands can say they've had that very often.

If you don't know what he control room sounds like, you don't know what the mix sounds like.

My control room is mid heavy and seemingly shy on low end (on purpose) compared to most peoples stereos. If you aren't used to it, it will seem like everything is a little dull and pukey. Especially if you aren't sitting in the sweet spot.

I always let people leave with something so they can try it out on systems that they know.

 

[whiskeyfoot]

i personally think, whether you suck as a band or not, obviously you aren't just trying to take this guy for a ride. I always believe in that the customer is always right, whether he thinks it's the right sound or not. I think too many people take offense to critisism, and thats total B/S if you're in customer service, which, in a wierd way, the guy doing the mix for you is involved in customer service.
If i were in a band, and wanted to worry about getting a crappy recording when i'm paying money to get it done, then i would have figured out a way to do it myself, than pay someone to give me something that sounded unlike how i expected it to. I think there's no way you'd be in the wrong telling the guy that you'd like him to work on it some more before you paid up.

I work in collision repair, and i'll tell you this: You can polish a turd, and it will still be a turd, but as long as the customer is happy with his turd, then thats all that matters. hahahaa

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

the guy doing the mix for you is involved in customer service.
...
You can polish a turd, and it will still be a turd, but as long as the customer is happy with his turd, then thats all that matters. hahahaa

I agree with the second part of that. But, while I know that the first part about "customer service" and the customer "always being right" are with out doubt the majority belief around these parts, I have some problems with that thought.

I used to be in customer service (tech support and all that), and I used to be in sales, so I know where that idea is coming from.

We do not ave customers, we have clients. It is our clients that are providing the customer service, with listener being the customer. It is our job to help the clients provide the listener a quality product. The reason the clients should be coming to us is because we can provide the service they need that they cannot perform themselves that will allow them to get their product to the ultimate customer. As such, we are playing the role, to at least some degree, of consultant, as well as engineer.

Of course our clients have the final say and are the ultimate decision makers. As such, yeah, they are "always right", even when they are wrong. But it's our job not to just polish turds, but also to ensure that what was more than a turd when given to us isn't closer to a turd when it leaves our hands. If the client likes turds, then more power to them. Make it a turd. But we do have responsibility to tell them when it is a turd, and why it may just make them and *their* customers happier if they weren't quite so enamored with something that smells so badly, even if they like the smell themselves.

When someone who knows nothing about architecture comes in and says they want to make a cantilevered balcony and want it made this way, the architect doesn't just say OK, here ya go, full well knowing that it won't last 5 years without warping or bending, or worse. They say, look, we have to do it a different way because it'll come crashing down sooner than later if we don't.

Everybody here complains that the quality of music and of recording has been going down for years. The #1 reason for that is because we are just sitting back and letting our clients be customers instead, and letting them be right without at least advising them first of where they just might be wrong.

If we are charging money for our services we had better be better at it than our clients are. If we're not, then we're just stealing money from them. If we are, then we at least owe them the benefit of our knowledge and experience for that money and not just build the house of cards they have in mind without it.

G.

 

[Seafroggys]

"The customer is always right" is an outdated sales model that needs to go by the wayside. I read a great article once that completely debunked the philosophy behind that statement, and because I work at a lousy retail job, I related very well.

Good outlook on the whole Consultant -> Client -> Customer model as well.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

"The customer is always right" is an outdated sales model that needs to go by the wayside.

I used to be in retail as well, as well as several years in technical support. A big problem with "the customer is always right" is that it can and does mean so many different things besides the John Ford/James Stewart interpretation used here.

The main thing to remember IMHO is that the most successful businesses are those with either repeat customers or customers who make a lot of referrals to new customers, or both. Letting the customer "be right" is not the path to that kind of success if they feel good about their product when they walk out the door but get buyer's remorse an hour or a month or a year later when they find out they were really not that right after all.

This is just as true of our clients as it is of our client's customers.

It's never our job to tell them what to do. But it is our job to give them the benefit of our expertise so they can at least make an informed decision.

G.

 

[TerraMortim]

shoot him in the head. Problem solved.

Just make sure you cap him in the right spot at the right angle... it would suck to have to have him identify you in a lineup out of his half obliterated one remaining eye. Remember, a gunshot to the head doesn't necessarily kill.

 

[whiskeyfoot]

When someone who knows nothing about architecture comes in and says they want to make a cantilevered balcony and want it made this way, the architect doesn't just say OK, here ya go, full well knowing that it won't last 5 years without warping or bending, or worse. They say, look, we have to do it a different way because it'll come crashing down sooner than later if we don't.

Everybody here complains that the quality of music and of recording has been going down for years. The #1 reason for that is because we are just sitting back and letting our clients be customers instead, and letting them be right without at least advising them first of where they just might be wrong.

G.

great point man, it is definately different than your day to day customer service, and advising is where the knowledge and experience that each engineer/producer (etc) has aquired over the years needs to be used the most. Definately. Anyone can simply point a mic and record, but its the pro's know why you're doing it a certain way, and not the way that the untrained client thinks it should be in thier head. Which, is why i am always
learning...there's just so much to learn.

 

[mikeh]

I've actually been on both sides of this.

Before I decided to spend more time on the other side of the glass - I paid for studio time, and on two occasions I was not happy with the results. Both times, I had heard other work the engineer did and had recommendations, etc. In one case, the guy simply did not hear/record things the way we wanted - in the other case, an assistant engineer did most of the work.

In the first case, we negotiated a reduced price and cut our losses - no hard feelings. The engineer did not want someone bad rapping him, so he negotiated as a gentleman - and I felt he deserved to earn something for his honest effort. I have always been kind in my opinion of him....which on occasion landed him additional business.

In the second case, I demanded my money back - because I felt I had paid for an A+ engineer, not a newbie assistant. The guy was a jerk (he reportedly had a serious problem with blow) and refused to give me my deposit - but the studio agreed to give me the 2" reel (about $200 worth of tape - about the amount of my deposit). However, I and my band mates made great effort to trash the engineer's name to whoever would listen.

As a studio owner, I had a band who claimed they were very unhappy with some demos I had tracked mixed and they stiffed me on most of my billed hours (I did not get much of a deposit - since I had actually been in a band with two of the guys). Interestingly, they used a cassette mix I let them take to get a gig as opening act for a national act at a rather large outdoor festival (so the mix must not have been too bad). I took my loss and did not make a stink - life is too short to fight over a few bucks.

I think if an artist chooses a studio/engineer and if the studio/engineer makes an honest effort (even if it is not up to the artists expectation) - then some payment is justified - dare I say earned. Hopefully, both side can make that desicion before too much time and effort is committed.

On the other side - as an engineer/studio owner - we need to maintain positive relationships and depend on word of mouth. So we should be willing to negotiate a reasonable settlement and part on good terms - rather than piss over a a few bucks and have someone who will go out of thier way to claim we ripped them off.

 

[Ironklad Audio]

edit: i should read past the 1st post before replying