Would you pay for a mix you didn't like?

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wreckd504

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Working with a new engineer, first track off the ranks sounds bad in mine and the bands opinion. We're not sure what to do. We've got a few other engineers who've done "test" mix's that sound better...is it unethical to ask for a reduced rate or not pay? We're a bit hesistant to ask him to do another track, because then it would be REALLY rude to say "well, we didn't like any of those mix's, we don't want to pay".

He hasn't given us anything to take away from his studio yet, so there is no worry that we have copied what he has done or would use it.

Awkward.
 
have you told him what it is you do or don't like about the track?

Coming from the other side, I know Ive had customers who were unhappy I couldnt make their broken instrument, cant tune it cant sing out of time sadly written copycat nonsense garbage sound like a 50 million dollar album for 35 dollars and a pinch off a dime bag
 
If you can't get it to sound acceptable, abort the project. You lose your deposit, the studio loses the balance, you each lose the time out in to date. I can't imagine re-negotiating my rate in the middle of a job.
 
We tracked at another studio and are now looking for engineers. We went to this guy first, and whilst he was doing his mix a few other guys asked if they could mix a few of our tracks. His mix came back and everything sounded lifeless. Not really sure how to explain it, bit of a newb at engineering. At first we thought, maybe our gear sucked or we tracked using the wrong mics, or did a rubbish performance, but the other engineer(s) made the tracks sound really good.

We haven't paid him anything and he is doing each track for a flat rate of $300. We didn't sign any contracts, and have no deposit, but we don't want to rip anyone off, but don't really want to pay him for something we're just going to trash.

We're a bit hesitant to ask for a another mix, because then we really would feel obliged to give him some payment even if his second attempt wasn't good.
 
wreckd504 said:
His mix came back and everything sounded lifeless. Not really sure how to explain it, bit of a newb at engineering. At first we thought, maybe our gear sucked or we tracked using the wrong mics, or did a rubbish performance, but the other engineer(s) made the tracks sound really good.
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Here's a bit of unfortunate truth; back when I was a lowly sales person (a long time a go, in a galaxy far, far away), all we had to do to make your Average Joe customer buy a piece of gear, whether it was a loudspeaker or an equalizer, was to make it sound louder than the competition. Just boost the output gain on the EQ by a few dB, even while leaving all the bands flat, and the result will sound "more lively" to the average customer. Want to sell a pair of speakers or studio monitors? just make sure you A/B compare the ones you want to sell against speakers that are less efficient (put out less dBSPL for the same amount of wattage.) Regardles sof how they sound - unless they are just absolute crap - the untrained ear will go for the more efficient ones eight times out of ten, regardless of the actual quality and frequency response of the sound itself.

This is going to be reeeeal hard to get across without sounding like an eliteist insult (now I know what Obama is going through :p). Please don't take this the wrong way, but are you guys really the ones who should be judging? I mean, if you can't tell the difference between the quality of a mix and the quality of performance or quality of gear, then you probably don't have the ears to tell what is actually a quality mix to begin with. Sure his mix may be "lifeless" to your ears compared to the others, but be honest; if you can't tell whether it's for any of the reasons you listed above, then you probably won't be able to tell it's simply because he has only created a mix alike he's supposed to, and not thrown that mix against a mastering brick wall the way a more inexperienced or devious "engineer" would automatically do to make it sound "k3wl" to the untrained ear.

Maybe his mix is indeed worse, and you are absoluetly right. Maybe his mix is fine and you guys are just gettng blindsided by premature extreme limiting on the part of the others. If you can't tell for sure yourself which is the case, then maybe you should try getting a corroberating or second opinion from more experienced ears.

And yeah, communicate with the guy now and make sure you are both on the same page. And the next time you have something like this done, communicate with the guy and *set expectations* on both sides BEFORE any work is done.

G.
 
Thanks Glen! No offense taken. I know this mixing thing is very subjective, which is why I assumed it was our fault first, our gear, then maybe our ears. But when the other mix's came back...well we didn't know what was going on.

Its hard because we haven't taken a copy of it yet, so whenever we want to listen to it he lets us sit in his mix room with just the band and our producer.

I think we might just say no thanks and go with the other guys who did a mix we liked straight up. It seems slack, but I don't want to pay for something we're not going to use, and if I get him to spend more time redoing it and it is just as bad then we'll HAVE to pay him.

Guess next time we'll ask him, "So, what is your policy if we don't like/want to use your mix?".
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
Here's a bit of unfortunate truth; back when I was a lowly sales person (a long time a go, in a galaxy far, far away), all we had to do to make your Average Joe customer buy a piece of gear, whether it was a loudspeaker or an equalizer, was to make it sound louder than the competition. Just boost the output gain on the EQ by a few dB, even while leaving all the bands flat, and the result will sound "more lively" to the average customer. Want to sell a pair of speakers or studio monitors? just make sure you A/B compare the ones you want to sell against speakers that are less efficient (put out less dBSPL for the same amount of wattage.) Regardles sof how they sound - unless they are just absolute crap - the untrained ear will go for the more efficient ones eight times out of ten, regardless of the actual quality and frequency response of the sound itself.
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Haha awesome, that's exactly what my dad and his buisiness partners used to do back in the mid-70ies in Soviet Union - boost up the dBs of the speakers. Heck I thought it was solely Russian trick :p


As for the topic - I dunno, I'm very biased coz I mix my bands stuff myself. And I agree with pipelineaudio
 
Mish said:
Haha awesome, that's exactly what my dad and his buisiness partners used to do back in the mid-70ies in Soviet Union - boost up the dBs of the speakers. Heck I thought it was solely Russian trick :p
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Did they also use the trick of selling tuned port loudspeakers by holding a cigarette lighter in front of the port and blowing it out by playing a bass-heavy song, then turning to the customer with wide eyes and saying, "You can even SEE the sound that these babies can make!"

No I'm not proud of those days. But that was almost 30 years ago, and what I am proud of is that I got out of that line of work as quickly as I could.

G.
 
Try this.


Ask him to send you the first 20secs of the first chorus. Get that from the other guys who are mixing. Compare them, make sure they're at the same volume.


Do a blind test so you don't know which is which - chose the one you think sounds best and go with that engineer!
 
I definately would not have him do any further work for now, but I would also keep a very open line of communication with him. Persoanlly, I feel like you are going to need to pay him for the song because he has already done the work you asked him too. Maybe with a little input from you his version can be changed a little, or maybe his version is fine and by talking with him you cna find out what the differences are and most importantly, why...
 
yea, you need to go with the person who's going to do the best job.
pay him 100 and just disappear.


i do this for money, and would really hate to have this happen to me, but as a customer i would insist on the cheapest/best possible solution.

your bad, you should have done better research, or made it clear that you were still shopping.
pay him something.
 
We spoke, he was disappointed, but I gave him half his fee so it worked ok I guess.
 
Did you really give it a good test with like volumes? Did you tell him what it was you didnt like? Was it genre specific?
 
wreckd504 said:
Its hard because we haven't taken a copy of it yet, so whenever we want to listen to it he lets us sit in his mix room with just the band and our producer.
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So let me get this straight ... you haven't even A/B'd the mixes on the same system?


:D
 
I took the other engineers mix's with us, because they were a bit more flexible, even said if we don't like the mix they didn't mind. He left us and our producer alone for a bit listening, I don't know, maybe its all in our head because he was a bit of a dick as well, so that might have something to do with it. But 5 people and a producer all agreeing?? Cmon how many peope in bands can say they've had that very often.
 
if the band and producer agree on the mix, something is wrong :)

I keed I keed

kind of
 
pipelineaudio said:
if the band and producer agree on the mix, something is wrong :)

I keed I keed

kind of
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Yeah, you mean none of the band members think they are not loud enough compared to the others, and the producer doen't think that the whole mix is not loud enough?

Especially since these were only "test mixes" and not masters?

What is this, the Twilight Zone or Bizzarro World?

;) :D

Of coursse we're all just speculating on this end since we can't hear anything, but because of the lack of disagreement on what are supposed to be test mixes, I still have this nagging feeling on the back of my neck that you guys have been duped just a bit by some rookies who have pre-mastered their mixes already before giving them to you to audition, vs. the more pro engineer who gave you a true test mix before any premastering has been done. The premasters are going to naturally be livelier and louder and punchier than a true test mix, but it's like comparing two cars, one before and one after being detailed for the showroom. The showroom one will always look better no matter what relative condition the two cars are actually in.

The potential problem with that is that the premastered mixes are probably more hardened and less pliable to further mastering that will be needed to get them to work with the rest of the album tracks atht are still in the oven.

But if you all are happy, I suoppse it's dumb of me to try and rain on that parade.

G.
 
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