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chance
Well-known member
Whats the risk? I am a home owner, I own 3 established businesses including my studio, and Paypal has all of my personal and business bank account numbers, and I'm going to forfit/lose everything for this? Where would I go to hide? There is no greed here, I am doing this for the fun of it. Many of you know this as I have posted publicly where all the funds are deposited each step of the process. This whole process is an open book to those who have participated. I am hiding nothing. I publicly challenge ANYONE to prove me wrong.
mshilarious
Banned
I
ittam
New member
Oh, please...!
Matti
Matti
ausrock
Well-known member
To what?
Why ask me, I don't manage Google.
Look, Randy pretty much admitted if he didn't have inside connections, no other provider would take this except at high fees.[QUOTE/]
That may be correct but it does little to ease the frustrations that Chance and Randy are probably feeling at present.
The criticisms were honest, is it too hard to understand that not everyone has had your stellar experiences with Paypal, for many people, it has been just the opposite.
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chance
Well-known member
Loan? Did I miss something here? There are no "loans" involved at all here.
dgatwood
is out. Leave a message.
It's not about risk by any stretch of the imagination. If this were an unknown person doing this, then I'd agree. This is someone who has organized this same basic buy through the same company on several past occasions without any serious problems. That's like somebody with years of perfect credit history being unable to get a loan. You start to really wonder if the bank got a nasty note from a company that will remain nameless saying "This loan will be used to compete with us, so would you please not give this guy a loan as a favor? Here's fifty bucks for your trouble."
It's remotely possible that this is Paypal's idiotic "anti-terrorism" policy:
http://www.jasonkenison.com/blog.html?id=39
That said, given the history of a certain American company, I'm pretty sure this was deliberate sabotage. I think I can guess in one try which shady company is in bed with Paypal, but I'll refrain from posting names until I have the proof I need to back up the claim.
If you are the employee of the shady company who did this, though, you'd better start looking for a new industry; you won't have a job when I'm through with you, and nobody else in the audio industry will hire you, either. You know who you are... and so do I.
I
ittam
New member
antichef
pornk rock
Crappy setback -- I hope we find something better soon. Matti's right - those of us who paid with paypal already may wind up being the slowest to get with the program on the new system, since it seems likely that the money will be tied up here and there as it makes its way around.
I, for one, put my money in my paypal account a week before the payment, so paypal didn't have the immediate risk that Randy described (they actually had the $), but the chargeback thing is still there, I guess -- paypal provides for a 45 day dispute period (and we all know this exercise takes longer than that), and presumably they consider themselves safe after that.
I can understand the desire to find an alternative -- if it turns out that we want to organize a letter writing campaign to paypal, I'm up for that, too.
Also, if the paypal refund isn't a done-deal, and it turns out to be wiser for Chance to just keep my paypal payment and then start working with another service for those who haven't paid yet, I'm fine with that, too, even if my fees turn out to be a little higher in the end (the difference is likely to be worth less than any hassle involved with eliminating the difference)
I, for one, put my money in my paypal account a week before the payment, so paypal didn't have the immediate risk that Randy described (they actually had the $), but the chargeback thing is still there, I guess -- paypal provides for a 45 day dispute period (and we all know this exercise takes longer than that), and presumably they consider themselves safe after that.
I can understand the desire to find an alternative -- if it turns out that we want to organize a letter writing campaign to paypal, I'm up for that, too.
Also, if the paypal refund isn't a done-deal, and it turns out to be wiser for Chance to just keep my paypal payment and then start working with another service for those who haven't paid yet, I'm fine with that, too, even if my fees turn out to be a little higher in the end (the difference is likely to be worth less than any hassle involved with eliminating the difference)
mshilarious
Banned
Guys, seriously, think like a profit-seeking business enterprise for a minute. What does the provider have to gain and what is their risk of loss? They have very sophisticated algorithms that are designed to flag transactions that will generate excess risk. They are operating on thin margins and they depend on that to make money.
What, you think somebody like N*** is involved again? I know he was perturbed enough to write that editorial, but really I think this is probably solely explained by Paypal's internal risk control process.
ausrock, suffice to say I don't love Paypal, I tolerate them. I look for alternatives constantly, but I haven't found a compelling alternative. Yet. In the meantime, as I said unfair criticism of them hurts the merchants that need them, which tend to be the smallest merchants around, who can't afford web programmers, etc. Have a little heart for the small guy, eh? Or give me a service I can use . . .
My experience is that the competitors will offer their shopping cart and programming services to get you up and running, but offer almost no details beyond the form to submit your contact info so their salespeople can call you. So you get the hard sell before you even know what it will cost or how it will support your website. I tried that once, I'm not doing it again . . . Paypal at least publishes their rates . . . and they don't answer their phones, much less try to sell you anything!
What, you think somebody like N*** is involved again? I know he was perturbed enough to write that editorial, but really I think this is probably solely explained by Paypal's internal risk control process.
ausrock, suffice to say I don't love Paypal, I tolerate them. I look for alternatives constantly, but I haven't found a compelling alternative. Yet. In the meantime, as I said unfair criticism of them hurts the merchants that need them, which tend to be the smallest merchants around, who can't afford web programmers, etc. Have a little heart for the small guy, eh? Or give me a service I can use . . .
My experience is that the competitors will offer their shopping cart and programming services to get you up and running, but offer almost no details beyond the form to submit your contact info so their salespeople can call you. So you get the hard sell before you even know what it will cost or how it will support your website. I tried that once, I'm not doing it again . . . Paypal at least publishes their rates . . . and they don't answer their phones, much less try to sell you anything!
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chance
Well-known member
I think it best that we chill, not fight/argue. There is power in numbers. We as a group are going to make this happen. I have been contacted by some high profile people in the recording industry that know me and are offering their help.
Some people think nothing of spending $1000.00 for a $98.00 mic. I find that unacceptable. It's hurting the future engineers careers and is an insult to our integrity. I only wish I could share whats on the horizon, but it would tip off the undesirables.
Some people think nothing of spending $1000.00 for a $98.00 mic. I find that unacceptable. It's hurting the future engineers careers and is an insult to our integrity. I only wish I could share whats on the horizon, but it would tip off the undesirables.
I
ittam
New member
This would be ideal for me too
/
Matti
And Chace, no problems here
-only gratitude for all of this
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chris carter
New member
I have three things to say:
1) As a business owner, Paypal scares me. A couple months ago I had a lengthy conversaion with my sister, who is starting a business, as to why I don't use Paypal. So I use google checkout. Who knows, eventually Google could become as bad as Paypal, but at least policy-wise it's much better (and cheaper too).
2) Randy, you are THE MAN. We are so freakin' lucky to have you. If you weren't here with all your experience, this whole thing could have gotten completely shut down for at least many months or permanently. THANK YOU!
3) Although I understand Randy's explanation of what goes on, my initial gut reaction (before his explanation, and still what I would put money on after reading his explanation) is that there is a large reseller who doesn't like us competing and they either a) contacted Paypal saying this whole thing was a scam in order to shut it down (ie. sabotoge) or b) they clear a lot more money through Paypal and basically said, "if you process this thing, I'm walking and you can decide who you will make more money from." If it's (a), then that's just dirty. If it's (b) well, that's "fair" in a business sense, but they had better pray nobody figures out who it is because I think with the scale of this there would be an awful lot of backlash that would hurt them more than what might be lost in competition from this GB. I think Randy's explanation is a part of it, but only in that it made either (a) or (b) just enough to shut this thing down - the icing on the cake so to speak.
1) As a business owner, Paypal scares me. A couple months ago I had a lengthy conversaion with my sister, who is starting a business, as to why I don't use Paypal. So I use google checkout. Who knows, eventually Google could become as bad as Paypal, but at least policy-wise it's much better (and cheaper too).
2) Randy, you are THE MAN. We are so freakin' lucky to have you. If you weren't here with all your experience, this whole thing could have gotten completely shut down for at least many months or permanently. THANK YOU!
3) Although I understand Randy's explanation of what goes on, my initial gut reaction (before his explanation, and still what I would put money on after reading his explanation) is that there is a large reseller who doesn't like us competing and they either a) contacted Paypal saying this whole thing was a scam in order to shut it down (ie. sabotoge) or b) they clear a lot more money through Paypal and basically said, "if you process this thing, I'm walking and you can decide who you will make more money from." If it's (a), then that's just dirty. If it's (b) well, that's "fair" in a business sense, but they had better pray nobody figures out who it is because I think with the scale of this there would be an awful lot of backlash that would hurt them more than what might be lost in competition from this GB. I think Randy's explanation is a part of it, but only in that it made either (a) or (b) just enough to shut this thing down - the icing on the cake so to speak.
dgatwood
is out. Leave a message.
I think if all 450 people involved in the buy all simultaneously emailed Paypal, it would clog their customer service department for a week....
Sounds like a good start....
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chance
Well-known member
Yesterday I spoke to Paypal (on the phone) and ordered them to IMMEADIATELY reverse everyones payment INCLUDING FEES. They sent me an E-mail that I endorsed. Everyone who paid should have their funds returned today. I feel for Randy and am so impressed at his confidence in being able to get us better rates with a better service. His passon and ours are on the same page.
I
ittam
New member
Than You
matti
matti
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Gilliland
New member
Chance, it is VERY clear to all of us with whom you've worked over the past several years on group buys that you are completely on the level. We see minimal risk in fronting money to you for these purchases.
But Paypal isn't looking at you, per se. They are simply looking at a type of transaction that has certain risky characteristics, and they are turning it down. I don't think that there is any malice here, nor is there any subterfuge. Paypal is a large business, and they do business via a set of policies and procedures. Their policy says that this doesn't fit their business model, so they reject it. It's that simple, and it has nothing to do with you or your credit-worthiness.
I'm not defending them, I'm simply pointing out that their decision makes sense given the guidelines under which they do business.
In this case, it's a bad decision. But in most such cases, it may well be a good decision. And they have no policies or procedures that allow them to differentiate between the good cases and the bad cases - they simply reject all of those transactions that fit that risk profile.
In the past, your group buys have slipped under their radar. This time it triggered one of their alerts, probably because the volume is so much larger this time. So PayPal may well suck, but they're not out to get you. It's a simple business decision that has nothing to do with you.
I'm just glad we've got Randy to help sort this out.
R
recordinghacks
professional middle child
possible paypal alternative
I've heard this described as a free alternative to PayPal. I've not used it, and I'd defer to others to read the fine print... but the headline makes good sense to me:
"* FREE to register for an account
* FREE to add money from your bank account
* FREE to send money
* FREE to receive money
* FREE to request money
* FREE to transfer money to your bank account"
Hmm, just like last time I can't actually post the URL, so I apologize this isn't clickable: revolutionmoneyexchange.com
Revolution Money is the latest venture of Steve Case (ex-AOL).
I'd definitely proceed with caution, because this service is very new.
Note the $25 signup incentive. Heck, that would just about cover the price for another ribbon.
I've heard this described as a free alternative to PayPal. I've not used it, and I'd defer to others to read the fine print... but the headline makes good sense to me:
"* FREE to register for an account
* FREE to add money from your bank account
* FREE to send money
* FREE to receive money
* FREE to request money
* FREE to transfer money to your bank account"
Hmm, just like last time I can't actually post the URL, so I apologize this isn't clickable: revolutionmoneyexchange.com
Revolution Money is the latest venture of Steve Case (ex-AOL).
I'd definitely proceed with caution, because this service is very new.
Note the $25 signup incentive. Heck, that would just about cover the price for another ribbon.
Zetajazz44
New member
I'm criticizing PayPal for their unwillingness work with Chance to get his transactions processed... At the end of the call, in a nutshell, she said, "Don't call back, and we don't want to hear 'why'...we don't care"...that's onoe of the reasons I'm disgruntled with PayPal. Another reason is that they should make their RISK model known to their "merchants"...and most importantly stick to them...which I know for a fact they don't... they are constantly changing their rules and shooting from the hip.
Using their shopping cart would have ABSOLUTELY NO impact on this whatsoever... Please tell me how... I'm VERY CURIOUS to know the inner-workings of this one... And I'm sure that the Compliancy Department at Visa/Mastercard would surely be interest to hear this one as well..
Randy
Zetajazz44
New member
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